On his blog Brennon, offers an exegesis on Romans 5:6. He understand it to be saying that Jesus died for every single human being because we are all ungodly. I agree that we are all ungodly. Let's look at the passage in a broader context verses 1-11
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Okay, now let's look at Brennon's argument, with my responses in red.
A single verse I think speaks volumes about the extent of Christ's atonement is Romans 5:6. Paul writes, "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly" (NASB).Paul tells us here explicitly who Christ died for; the ungodly. Now, many Calvinists claim that Jesus only died for a select few on the cross. He only paid for the sins of the elect. But if this is the case, then Romans 5:6 would indicate that the non-elect aren't ungodly, since Christ died for the ungodly. Or it means, as the Arminian insists, that Christ really did die for the ungodly; namely all those who are at odds with God because of their sin, who Paul identifies as every individual on earth (Romans 3:23).
We are in complete agreement that every human being is ungodly.
The only other alternative I could see the Calvinist presenting here is that Paul only means the ungodly among the elect, since Paul says "while we were still helpless." However, this is a tortured reading of this text and in no way follows. "We" clearly means humanity as a whole, but even if it means the specific people Paul is talking to, it doesn't alter the fact that he writes that "Christ died for the ungodly." So if we are to take "we" to mean the elect, it could still read "while [the elect] were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly." The article "the" modifies the noun "ungodly" in a way that it causes it to mean ungodly people in general. There really is no other way to read this verse: Christ died for every individual since every individual is ungodly.In light of the verses preceeding verse 6, I don't think we can say that because Jesus died for the ungodly, he died for every single human being. In context, Paul limits for whom the sacrifice is made although all need justification and sanctification. Paul is talking directly to the church - those who believe and reminding us that Jesus died for us although we don not deserve it. Look at verses 1 and 2.
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
The reason why we are "justified through faith" and have peace and the hope of the glory of God" is because Jesus died for us. We are ungodly but not all of the ungodly are saved. Putting aside the question of why some ungodly are not saved and some are saved for now and just ask isn't the ungodly who are saved in verse 6 the same as those who are "justified through faith" in verse 1? I would stay they are. So unless everyone is justified or Jesus did not die for every single individual or "the ungodly" in verse 6 only refers to the elect - those who believe. What about verses 9-11
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Brennon's Thoughts: Romans 5:6: Who are the Ungodly?
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In light of the verses preceeding verse 6, I don't think we can say that because Jesus died for the ungodly, he died for every single human being.
ReplyDeleteThen wouldn't this indicate that the non-elect must not be ungodly? If Christ died for the ungodly, yet He didn't die for the non-elect, then it logically follows that the non-elect aren't ungodly. But that can't be correct.
In context, Paul limits for whom the sacrifice is made although all need justification and sanctification.
I don't think the context shows that at all. The context does show that the extent of who is justified is limited to those who have faith. That's the context of the entire epistle. But it doesn't seem to follow that the extent of the atonement is limited. The atonement is for the ungodly (all humanity is ungodly) and the application is to those who have faith (Romans 5:1).
Pual is talking directly to the church - those who believe and reminding us that Jesus died for us although we don not deserve it
Regardless, it doesn't change what is said in verse 6.
The reason why we are "justified through faith" and have peace and the hope of the glory of God" is because Jesus died for us
Agreed.
We are ungodly but not all of the ungodly are saved
Also agreed.
Putting aside the question of why some ungodly are not saved and some are saved for now and just ask isn't the ungodly who are saved in verse 6 the same as those who are "justified through faith" in verse 1?
That can't be the case. Paul says Christ died for "the ungodly." That doesn't allow a limitation of ungodly. It's like if I say, "the Americans have freedom of speech guaranteed to them by the constitution." By sticking the article "the" in front of a noun, you generalize that noun.
Paul says that the same people he has been talking to since verse 1 (and before) are saved from God's wrath and receive reconciliatio
Just because Paul is writing to Christians doesn't mean he can't tell Christians that God died for all people. However, he makes clear that one must have faith to have the atonement applied to them.
He is referring to just the body of believers throughout all of time, not ever human being
Then it would follow if Christ died for the ungodly, and He only died for the elect, then only the elect are ungodly.
Yes, all people are sinners and ungodly, but only the elect are saved from God's wrath
Correct, but that doesn't mean that Christ didn't atone for the sins of the non-elect.
Scuse me, I meant to say, "By sticking the article "the" in front of a noun, you generally universalize that noun."
ReplyDeleteIs the same thing about "the" universalizing a noun the same in Greek? I'm not sure about that. I don't think that verses 1-5 talks about the elect, switches to all people in verse 6, and then back to the elect verses 7-11. And if the atonement is only limited in application and not scope then you have unrepentant sinners going to hell although their sins were already atoned for by Jesus. How does that work? I don't think it does work at all. I don't think that verse 6 is a proof text against limit atonement (or particular redemption is you prefer).
ReplyDeleteQuestion: You said - "However, he makes clear that one must have faith to have the atonement applied to them." Does that mean the atonement was for all but it isn't applied until the believer believes? Revelations 13:8 says
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
Those who are saved belong to the Lamb - Jesus - from the beginning.
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ReplyDeleteIs the same thing about "the" universalizing a noun the same in Greek?
ReplyDeleteThere's a reason all of the translations phrase it the way they do. I'm not even slightly proficient in Greek, so I'll have to rely on the English translations, and all of the translators thought it necessary to generalize who the ungodly is.
And if the atonement is only limited in application and not scope then you have unrepentant sinners going to hell although their sins were already atoned for by Jesus
This is a common thought process among Calvinists, but it really isn't a problem. Christ died for the sins of all people, but this atonement isn't applied to non-believers. The work of the atonement and its application are two different things. I think a good illustration is to use the type of Christ shown in the OT of the passover lamb. The lamb was killed and its blood spilled, but the blood had to be applied to the doorpost for the angel of death to pass over the home.
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
Those who are saved belong to the Lamb - Jesus - from the beginning.
Well first off, the translation of this verse is a little ambiguous. Some translations attach "from the foundation of the world" to either "everyone whose names have been written" or to "the lamb that was slain." I think it is the former since Rev. 17:8 says it without ambiguity.
That being said, assuming the clause "from the foundation of the world" is attached to the names written in the book, does this mean these names are written in stone? No. There are occasions where people's names are blotted out of the Book of Life (Exodus 32:33; Revelation 3:5, cf. Rev. 22:18).
So what does this verse mean? Either it means that, since God has exhaustive foreknowledge, the names of those who believe have been known since the world was founded. Or it is not that names either were or were not written in the "book of life" before they were ever born, rather, throughout history, in response to the choices people made, God either wrote or omitted their names from the "book of life." So the writing is from that point forward in time (which I think works and reads better).
So, from the foundation of the world, if you're name hasn't been included from then until Christ returns, then the consequences are applied.
Can anyone give proof that "the ungodly" generalizes? I don't see it because it doesn't make sense to read the passage as Paul talking specifically about the elect, then about all people, and then back to the elect.
ReplyDeleteIf the atonement is not applied to all people, just believers then how can we say that Jesus died for every single person if it is by his death our sins are atoned. If it is correct that Jesus died for all then that means the blood was put on everyone's doorpost and we know that is not correct.
Judging from what you said:
That being said, assuming the clause "from the foundation of the world" is attached to the names written in the book, does this mean these names are written in stone? No. There are occasions where people's names are blotted out of the Book of Life (Exodus 32:33; Revelation 3:5, cf. Rev. 22:18).
It seems that you believe that one can loose your salvation. Looking at the context of those scriptures I think that we can conclude that those blotted out of the "Book" were never written in and were never predestined for salvation. What "book" is it in Exodus? Is it the same book as in Revelations? I don't think so. And I know you hold to the doctrine of "Total Depravity". In that case we know that no one is in the Book of Life in default. IT's not that everyone is in the book and God blots out those who rejects Christ. It is more like God writes us in when we accept Christ and once he does, he doesn't erase our name...ever.
We know God knows the end from the beginning. Therefore of course the names of those who were ever going to be saved was known to God. To hold otherwise is "open theism".
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. Isaiah 46:10