What had happen' was.....: Jul 13, 2010

Tuesday, July 13, 2010

YouTube - Voice of Revolution Interviews an Atheist after Brown / Ehrman Debate at OSU

Here is an interview with an atheist who attended the debate between Dr. Michael Brown and Bart Ehrman.

YouTube - Voice of Revolution Interviews an Atheist after Brown / Ehrman Debate at OSU

Brennon's Thoughts: Verses All Arminians Should Know Part 4

Brennon has posted a great list of scriptures that support Arminianism. I'm not certain that they support the Arminian position. Rather than try to responding to them all at once, I will break them down into several posts based on how the list is presented.This topic interests me because I really wanna know what the Bible says. Here is part 4 regarding the idea that Bible teaches that we must remain in Christ to remain secure. How does the Bible say we remain in Christ? We know and I think all Christians agrees that there is no security outside of Christ. How does one get out of Christ? One doesn't.

Verses that show we must remain in Christ to be secure:

Romans 11:17-24

¹⁷If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, ¹⁸do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. ¹⁹You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." ²⁰Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. ²¹For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
²²Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. ²³And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. ²⁴After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

No where in the passage does the Paul tells us that it is by our work that we are grafted in. God grafts us in. God cuts off. God is clearly saying that. The passage is not telling us how we get out of Christ of our own choice any more than we can get into Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:2

²By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

I don't think that the passage is at all telling us how people fall off. It is telling us that we must hold firm to the truth and I don't see how it is saying that we can walk away from Jesus. Only if we do we not anything we do prior is pointless.

Ephesians 5:3-7

³But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. ⁴Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. ⁵For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.^[a] ⁶Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. ⁷Therefore do not be partners with them.

This passage is telling us if we live such evil lives, we show that we are not in Christ, not that you can be once in christ and then these actions puts you out.

Colossians 1:21-23

²¹Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of^[a] your evil behavior. ²²But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— ²³if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Paul is saying that if you continues in faith, you know that Jesus reconciled you. It's not saying that it is dependent on us.

2 Peter 1:10

¹⁰Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,

Peter is not saying that that we elect ourselves by obeying what we know we ought to do. Peter is saying that we know our election is true by obeying. Everyone is fallen, but thanks to Jesus, not us, we don't have to stay there.

2 Peter 2:20-22

²⁰If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. ²¹It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. ²²Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

This passage is one of those I have actually seen lived out. I've seen people who for a time show all the signs of true repentance, even being delivered miraculously, and then leave Christianity. This passage is dealing with apostasy. I have also seen people leave the church and come back. The passage is not telling us that these people were really regenerated or born-again.

Hebrews 6:4-6

⁴It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, ⁵who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, ⁶if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Is the passage saying that it's impossible for those who have saved to fall away or that's impossible for apostates to be brought back? I think that it is not talking about born-again salvation. Again people get "saved" and go back out to the world all the time. They hear and agree with the Gospel and then when things get hard or the euphoria wears off they go back to being who they are. There is no transformation. No real change. I think the writer of Hebrews is not suggesting that it's possible for a believer to leave Jesus, only why it's impossible for a born-again Christian to walk away from God. It seem mind boggling for people to know first-hand what God is offering them and then refuse it. However people do.

Hebrews 10:26

¹⁹Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, ²⁰by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, ²¹and since we have a great priest over the house of God, ²²let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. ²³Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. ²⁴And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. ²⁵Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
²⁶If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, ²⁷but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. ²⁸Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. ²⁹How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? ³⁰For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." ³¹It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Let's look at verse 26 in context. of verses 19-31 as a whole. A direct parallel is made with the blood sacrifices of the Old Testament and we are told that if we go on sinning there can be no other sacrifice because Jesus is the last one. I think the passage is not talking about unbelievers insulting the Spirit because this is something a born-again person would not do.

James 1:12; 5:19-20

¹²Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

What if a man does not persevere? He will not receive the crown of life God promised - showing that the man does not love God. If a man does not love God he can't be saved.

¹⁹My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, ²⁰remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Verse 20 is talking about all repentant sinners not just those who wander away. Again I don't think anyone would argue that sometimes Christians wander away just like wayward sheep. It's not addressing those who leave and never come back. The language suggests a temporary scenario.

There is no argument that we must remain in Jesus to know our salvation is secure. We must work at growing and putting on our full armor. We must deny ourselves. Beat our wills to submission to Christ. For a lot of people, saying that we are eternally secure means that we can do whatever we want and don't have to do anything to be saved. I think that this is a huge problem.. No where does the Bible say that. There is much required of us not for salvation be because we are saved.

⁸For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— ⁹not by works, so that no one can boast. ¹⁰For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. - Ephesians 2:8-10

Good works should follow salvation. God wants us to be busy but he also wants us to be assured that He's is in control and we don't have to worry about being lost just concern ourselves with living for Him.

While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. - John 17:12

Yes, Jesus was talking about the 12 in context, but why would it not apply to us today? I find much assurance in the following passages I will end with.

³⁷No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. ³⁸For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, ³⁹neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:37-39

⁴In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy ⁵because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, ⁶being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. - Philippians 1:4-6

Brennon's Thoughts: Verses All Arminians Should Know