Wednesday, January 12, 2011

Can A Metamorphesis Be Reversed? Examining Apostasy. - Responding back

Seems Like Ryan Anderson responded back to the questions I raised. I've posted his comments below and I will Respond. He bolded my comment he specifically addresses. I'm going to make my comments in red.


Well crap, I thought those questions were posed by Hugh, not you Marcus. Oh well, that will teach me to pay more attention.

I can tell by your comments, that you need to pay more attention to not only who addresses you but to what they actually said. If denominations differ so much why couldn't you tell a difference between what I believe and what Hugh believes?

Marcus: He keeps saying that, but never has managed to proven it.
Right, just like I can’t prove Noah fought off our evil slug overlords on Pangea 175 million years ago…

Good thing the Bible doesn't say Noah fought off evil slug overlords. Therefore it has no bearing on if the Bible is right or not. Try again.

Me: But, if I go to the trouble of answering these questions for you, I'll expect a description of your "born again" experience. Fair's fair.
Again, I thought I was responding to Hugh, I already know about your “born again” experience.

I don't think you do because you said you think it's no different than your own.

Marcus: It's crime and violence against the character of God himself.
Right, so how’s that differ from “deviation from godliness”?

"deviation from godliness" fails to capture how truly bad sin is. It makes it sound like you jay walked or walked on grass when there was a sign telling you not to walk on it. It shows that you don't look at sin the way God does...maybe you never did. Sin (from failing to help someone when you can help them to mass murder and everything in between) is that bad that hell can only be the logical result.

Marcus: I was actually asking about if you consider yourself a sinner now?
And I told you I would be responding as how I understood these things from when I was a Christian. Obviously you know that I don’t believe in sin as a metaphysical thing now, but of course there are standards.

Are you a sinner according to those standards?

Marcus: the question was more directed to your condition today.
Right, see above. Pretty much everything you wrote on this, from my perspective now as an atheist, is just gibberish.

Are you morally culpable for transgressing standards today?

Marcus: “Didn't you ever pray for guidance? Didn't you ever pray for wisdom? Didn't you ever pray to be a blessing to other people? Have you ever asked God to give you patience?
Of course.

Did you get it? What about the other questions I asked about prayer. You really didn't give a full answer.

Marcus: Everyone knows that if you are honest most of the time you have no idea what you are doing….
I think I asked for specific details of instances that could not be explained naturally. Oh well, to be fair I thought I was asking that of Hugh.

I did give such instances at the end. The fact that I have experienced such instances and you haven't shows that you don't know what it's like to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or to be born-again.

Marcus: I'm not sure what your confusion is here, Ryan. Where did I say you should only go on your feelings to relate to God? When did I say that you should only use head knowledge to relate to God? I didn't.
If I say I knew scripture (I did and do), you’ll say I only had head knowledge, if I say I had a very emotional experience (I did) you’ll say I only had a “feeling”. It’s not honest on your part and answering these questions is a no win situation on mine, but hey, you can believe whatever you want, and this helps you continue to believe.

No I wouldn't. I think that you did know something about scripture. I am certain that you had very emotional experience. Those things don't add up to be born-again. The Bible says the same things about demons - they know scripture and they have emotional experiences. Also if you think those things were real why do you think that they weren't real enough to sustain your faith? You are in a no win situation because you disagree with the Bible.

Marcus: You really didn't describe your born-again experience.
Of course I did.

You said you gained head knowledge and had an emotional experience and had prayers you thought were answered. If you think that this all a born-again experience is - you were cheated.

Marcus: What sins did you stop doing after your received Jesus as your Lord and Savior?
Too many to count, drinking, smoking pot and “fornication” for three.

When you gave up Christ did you go back to those sins or any of the things you used to do.

Marcus: Did you have an insatiable hunger to read the Bible and learn more about God?
Yes.

What happened to that? And given what you have said about the Bible, I find it difficult to believe you ever learned anything about his character and who God is.

Marcus: I had a huge problem with the fact that slavery had been an institution in the United States - so much so that I thought that any white person who owned slaves had gone straight to hell. I was convicted by this when God made me realize that this thought was not Biblical. It's not part of the Gospel.
Yeah, I could have told you that… I’m pretty sure divine intervention wasn’t what made you realize that. Maybe you just grew up a little?

Yes, it was God. Given how you and other atheist think its so horrible that God does not explicitly condemn slavery in the Bible, I would think that such an attitude says "Those people deserve to be in hell (if there is a hell), not me. They owned slaves." Our society has gone out its way to condemn them and thinks of them as backward and immoral. As if we are better than them. We are not. It's harder to see that as a descendant of slaves and still living with the results of their actions. Somethings come easier to see than other things. Those things take a revelation from God.

Marcus: The word the Bible uses to say "transformed" is the same word we get "metamorphosis" from. Ryan, you claim to know biology better than I do. Therefore you know that there is not a single change described in biology as a metamorphosis that is reversible.
You will need to substantiate your assertion that the born again experience qualifies as a “metamorphosis”, and obviously it’s not a biological metamorphosis so I’ve already got that working against you.

How can it not be a metamorphosis of mind and attitude? You go from not caring or thinking of God at least and hating God at worst to handing over your life and submitting yourself and all you have control over to Him. Given that you presented yourself as a living sacrifice then crawled off the altar and now refuse to get back on that altar points to that your mind may never had been transformed. I know of sick people who became well after they became born-again so I would not be so quick to discount the biological component. And we will be getting new bodies when Jesus returns - completing the metamorphosis to what we have always intended to be (see 1 Corinthians 15 - I thought you said you knew your Bible).

Marcus: I have to wonder how much weight did it hold for you when you were a "Christian".
A lot. I’ve read it cover to cover twice and cannot tell you how many times I’ve read the Gospels and various books.

But did it change you? And why doesn't it hold any weight now. Originally, I posted several verses that tell explicitly if you leave Christ you was never a part. Did you ever understand them that way? Either you are wrong or the Bible is wrong. You both can't be right. When you were a Christian what verses bothered you and how did reconcile them with yourself? Did you say well, "I guess I'm wrong" or where they the catalyst for what you are now?

I said ”But, if I go to the trouble of answering these questions for you, I'll expect a description of your "born again" experience. Fair's fair.”
Marcus said ”It'll be at the very end of this in red.”

You never did get around to this, but that’s ok because I thought I was asking that of Hugh and you and I already discussed yours a while back and it closely resembled mine.

Yup, you really didn't pay attention. I explained about what sanctification is and how it plays a part in the on-going born-again experience and I never heard you discuss that. It's been essential to my walk with Jesus. Without it I don't know how you can stay committed to God. Because evil and hateful of godliness is what we are by default. God has to change us so that we can be in relationship with us. God is not going to change. God doesn't have to change.

Marcus: “It seems to me that if you reject the scriptures as being true now, you actually prove that they are indeed true because you are fulfilling them. They are describing you.”

Wow, the bible contains psychology and insights into human nature… amazing… Do me a favor, presuppose the bible is not true, pretend it’s the book of Mormon, the Qu’ran or something. Would you be amazed that it included some passages explaining away the fact that some people would not believe it?

We can demonstrate that the Book of Mormon and the Qur'an are wrong. Putting them alongside the Bible as being equal makes me wonder even if your really know what is any of the three. All three conflict with one another. Either they are all wrong or one of them wrong. No two of them can be simultaneously true. Do me a favor and make an intelligent argument for why you think the Bible is not true. No need to bring up the Qur'an or the Book of Mormon. We agree that they are wrong. The bottom line is you can't even live up to your own standards of right and wrong. How do you fix it?

What had happen' was.....: Can A Metamorphesis Be Reversed? Examining Apostasy.
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46 comments:

  1. Not much to respond to in the first section.

    Are you a sinner according to those standards?
    How could I be a “sinner” if I don’t believe in something called “sin”. But yes, from time to time I don’t meet my own standard. For the most part I meet societies standard.

    Did you get it? [i.e. answers to prayers]
    Sometimes yes, sometimes no and sometimes maybe, same results as if I’d been praying to a rock.

    When you gave up Christ did you go back to those sins or any of the things you used to do.
    Technically “fornication”, but not really.

    What happened to that?
    It changed into an interest in the secular/critical history of bible and the early Christian church as well as textual criticism, then it faded, now here I am…

    Yes, it was God. Given how you and other atheist think it’s so horrible that God does not explicitly condemn slavery in the Bible, I would think that such an attitude says "Those people deserve to be in hell (if there is a hell), not me.
    This is disjointed and confused. Why would atheists 1) think anyone is in hell and 2) think the bible says anything that it doesn’t? The rest of your point here goes a long way to support the notion of moral relativism.

    How can it not be a metamorphosis of mind and attitude?
    just saying that because the root of one word is also used as a another word that describes a biological process does not mean the first word exactly has all the characteristics of the second word. Analogy fail… but this one of the ways apologists stay in business.

    But did it change you?
    Sure seemed like it.

    And why doesn't it hold any weight now.
    because I figured out it’s not the word of god

    Yup, you really didn't pay attention. I explained about what sanctification is and how it plays a part in the on-going born-again experience and I never heard you discuss that.
    I’m talking about the actual moment you were “born again”, not the ongoing process. I want to know what you felt.

    We can demonstrate that the Book of Mormon and the Qur'an are wrong.
    In the same way we can demonstrate that the patterns on a sticks do not affect the genetics of goats?

    Putting them alongside the Bible as being equal makes me wonder even if you’re really know what is any of the three.
    I used to think like you. It took me a long time to realize they actually are on the same footing.

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  2. @Ryan my current comments will be in italics

    Are you a sinner according to those standards?
    How could I be a “sinner” if I don’t believe in something called “sin”. But yes, from time to time I don’t meet my own standard. For the most part I meet societies standard.

    It doesn't matter if you believe in sin or not. Do you meet the standard? And where did the standard come from?

    Did you get it? [i.e. answers to prayers]
    Sometimes yes, sometimes no and sometimes maybe, same results as if I’d been praying to a rock.

    This means that you did not know who you were talking to when you prayed

    When you gave up Christ did you go back to those sins or any of the things you used to do.
    Technically “fornication”, but not really.

    The image at the top of the succeeding text is all I need to say regarding this one.

    What happened to that?
    It changed into an interest in the secular/critical history of bible and the early Christian church as well as textual criticism, then it faded, now here I am…

    The born-again experience should be an ongoing experience. It is not just a one-time thing. If it fades you weren't born again.

    Yes, it was God. Given how you and other atheist think it’s so horrible that God does not explicitly condemn slavery in the Bible, I would think that such an attitude says "Those people deserve to be in hell (if there is a hell), not me.
    This is disjointed and confused. Why would atheists 1) think anyone is in hell and 2) think the bible says anything that it doesn’t? The rest of your point here goes a long way to support the notion of moral relativism.

    When did I say that atheists think hell is real> I'm pointing to the fact that today most Americans look down their noses at slave holders as if we are better than they. I don't support moral relativism. I'm pointing out that I had unknowingly fallen pray to it just as much as you have and God liberated me.

    How can it not be a metamorphosis of mind and attitude?
    just saying that because the root of one word is also used as a another word that describes a biological process does not mean the first word exactly has all the characteristics of the second word. Analogy fail… but this one of the ways apologists stay in business.

    "Metamorphoo" (strong's 3339) is the word in question. Can you prove that Paul did not mean the same type of transformation. Recall that metamorphoo was chosen as a root for a very important reason. It means more than just "Transformed" which in the case of today can mean that it can be reversed. A metamorphosis is quite different. You have to prove that metamorphoo does not mean a one-way transformation before you can call the butterfly analogy a failure. It would be amusing to see you try.

    But did it change you?
    Sure seemed like it.

    Reminds me of Jesus parable of the sower. The devil came and snatched the word from your heart.

    And why doesn't it hold any weight now.
    because I figured out it’s not the word of god

    Just how did you come to that conclusion> It seems shady that it took you 25 yrs to figure that out.

    Yup, you really didn't pay attention. I explained about what sanctification is and how it plays a part in the on-going born-again experience and I never heard you discuss that.
    I’m talking about the actual moment you were “born again”, not the ongoing process. I want to know what you felt.

    That is my point. It's not a single moment but an on-going process God does in you.

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  3. We can demonstrate that the Book of Mormon and the Qur'an are wrong.
    In the same way we can demonstrate that the patterns on a sticks do not affect the genetics of goats?

    If you read Genesis more carefully I see careful breeding taking place not genetic manipulation. I think you missed something - er a whole lot actually.

    Putting them alongside the Bible as being equal makes me wonder even if you’re really know what is any of the three.
    I used to think like you. It took me a long time to realize they actually are on the same footing.

    How did you come to that conclusion. Stating it doesn't make it true - no matter how many times you say it.

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  4. So Marcus, you’ve not convinced me that I wasn’t a “True Christian”™ (at least compared to anyone else), but you have made a great case that they really they don’t exist at all. You’ve also convinced me that there are no lengths to which you won’t go to maintain your belief. My thought on this is it really should be easier for you, if it was true, if there was a “holy spirit” actually engaged with you, indwelling with you, you really should have no problem defending your beliefs, and yet you do.

    Final comments below

    Do you meet the standard? And where did the standard come from?
    We’ve been over this, most the time, society and maybe a little biology.

    This means that you did not know who you were talking to when you prayed
    Sigh, you are conflating my attitude in the past with my attitude now.

    The image at the top of the succeeding text is all I need to say regarding this one.
    Obviously you don’t have all the details, so no, a glib post card isn’t going to say all that is needed. But I have to ask, what does coffee have to do with "sin"?

    If it fades you weren't born again.
    Please substantiate this assertion.

    I don't support moral relativism
    Not knowingly, of course not. But your comments on slavery couldn’t have made a better case for it.

    You have to prove that metamorphoo does not mean a one-way transformation…
    No, you have to prove that a spiritual metamorphosis has the exact qualities of a biological metamorphosis.

    The devil came and snatched the word from your heart.
    So I had the word in my heart? Seems to contradict your entire point?

    Just how did you come to that conclusion
    My interest in the secular/critical history of bible and the early Christian church as well as textual criticism.

    It seems shady that it took you 25 yrs to figure that out.
    It didn’t take 25 years. My deconversion took place over about 5 or 10 years (depending on how you look at it).

    That is my point. It's not a single moment but an on-going process God does in you.
    Obviously there was a moment when you were not a “True Christian”™ and then a moment when you became a “True Christian”™, I was asking Hugh about the moment in-between. Why are you being evasive? Obviously we’ve already been over this and your “moment in between” seemed to very closely correspond with mine.

    I see careful breeding taking place not genetic manipulation
    Careful breeding is genetic manipulation. But what do the sticks have to do with anything?

    How did you come to that conclusion
    My interest in the secular/critical history of bible and the early Christian church as well as textual criticism

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  5. @Ryan. I'm going to put my responses italics. My quotes to which you responded will be bold and yours comment will be plain text.

    So Marcus, you’ve not convinced me that I wasn’t a “True Christian”™ (at least compared to anyone else), but you have made a great case that they really they don’t exist at all. You’ve also convinced me that there are no lengths to which you won’t go to maintain your belief. My thought on this is it really should be easier for you, if it was true, if there was a “holy spirit” actually engaged with you, indwelling with you, you really should have no problem defending your beliefs, and yet you do.

    I know I haven't convinced you because you are so rooted in what you think is right. I didn't think I was going to convince you otherwise. My point is not that you weren't a true Christian. the point is that you can have better than what you thought you had. If what you thought you had was as good as what I have, you wouldn't have left.

    Final comments below


    Do you meet the standard? And where did the standard come from?
    We’ve been over this, most the time, society and maybe a little biology

    If you are right about the source of morality than why would you have standards that you already admit that you don't and cannot perfectly maintain? Unless you are willing to concede that something is wrong with you and people do meet those standards, I'd say you have a problem

    This means that you did not know who you were talking to when you prayed
    Sigh, you are conflating my attitude in the past with my attitude now.

    I'm saying that you attitude never changed. You agreed with me because you said you weren't changed in any fundamental level and it was all in your head. All I did was agree with you.

    The image at the top of the succeeding text is all I need to say regarding this one.
    Obviously you don’t have all the details, so no, a glib post card isn’t going to say all that is needed. But I have to ask, what does coffee have to do with "sin"?

    I don't need all the details. You said you went back to some of the sins you called yourself forsaking when you became a christian. You said it I didn't. You are also saying that you have no accountability for those things to God because now you believe he never existed. The coffee symbolized to me the addicting nature of sin. We are sinners we can't help it. That means we are deserving of death - hell - and why it took the blood of Jesus to liberate us from that curse.

    If it fades you weren't born again.
    Please substantiate this assertion.

    By definition being born-again is not a one time moment. It's something that follows you from then on. If the characteristics that come from being born again fade then the process could not have begun in you.

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  7. @ Ryan

    I don't support moral relativism
    Not knowingly, of course not. But your comments on slavery couldn’t have made a better case for it.

    If you think that pointing out that Goid had chosen in the old covenant to allow slavery is accepting a relativistic morality, I think you have a problem recognizing that it can't be relative if it's base on what god chooses to allow and prohibit. It's not based on the people living under it, but God's authority. For example, take Divorce. Read what Jesus said in Mattew 19. God can choose enforce whatever he wants when he wants to.

    You have to prove that metamorphoo does not mean a one-way transformation
    No, you have to prove that a spiritual metamorphosis has the exact qualities of a biological metamorphosis.

    Really desperate, Ryan. When you can't answer a challenge you make one of your own. A Biologic metamorphosis is a change in form and characteristics and habits. This is what it means to be born-again. I know people who have changed from being mean, selfish, and cruel people to being kind, loving,and giving. Some people are in this process of making this change. My uncle was a drug addict for years. Lied, stole, and didn't care about anyone or anything beyond the drugs he took. @0 years ago, God changed him. He came to Jesus and god took that addiction from him. He has been a good citizen and contributor to our society ever since. All he wants to do now is pleas God and help others. The final physical metamorphosis will take placer when we get our resurrected bodies. I know you hate the butterfly example, but you have said nothing about the other example I gave. I liked Jesus' most a birth - can a person born become unborn? Nope. Case close.

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  8. @ Ryan

    The devil came and snatched the word from your heart.
    So I had the word in my heart? Seems to contradict your entire point?

    I never said the word was never in your heart. That isn't the same thing as being born-again. Don't you know the Parable of the sower. Re-read Matthew 13:1-23. You ere like the the path, rocky, and thorny grounds. Jesus had you pegged.

    Just how did you come to that conclusion
    My interest in the secular/critical history of bible and the early Christian church as well as textual criticism.

    I and many others share the same interest. We have come to different conclusions- Not despite them. The difference? We are born-again you are were and are not.

    It seems shady that it took you 25 yrs to figure that out.
    It didn’t take 25 years. My deconversion took place over about 5 or 10 years (depending on how you look at it).

    Sad. I hope God truly reveals Himself to you so you can see the truth this time and won't be shaken. I want God to make your heart into that good soil so He can make good fruit come from you.

    That is my point. It's not a single moment but an on-going process God does in you.
    Obviously there was a moment when you were not a “True Christian”™ and then a moment when you became a “True Christian”™, I was asking Hugh about the moment in-between. Why are you being evasive?

    I'm not being invasive. Many a people have been fooled by that moment. You don't know if it really happened unless there is change and fruit produced in your life. They can be faked. On way to tell if it was fake is if it is sustained. God alone sustains it in us. We get no credit. If it was not sustained in you that means it wasn't God working in you. That is why you failed.

    Obviously we’ve already been over this and your “moment in between” seemed to very closely correspond with mine.

    It's not about the moment. As I've said and continue to say the moment means nothing without follow up. Being born-again is not a momentary experience. And you didn't follow up.

    I see careful breeding taking place not genetic manipulation
    Careful breeding is genetic manipulation. But what do the sticks have to do with anything?

    Would you like to say the Jacob knew all about genetic manipulation? No? Me neither. God told Jacob how to use the sticks and what to do. He intervened in Jacob's circumstances. That is all we can get from the story not that the sticks did anything. Nothing is saying that if you did the same it would work the same way for you. It was Jacob's obedience that God was looking at. 'Sides that Laban was trying to cheat Jacob.

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  9. I know I haven't convinced you because you are so rooted in what you think is right.
    Pot calling the kettle black

    If you are right about the source of morality than why would you have standards that you already admit that you don't and cannot perfectly maintain?
    Because I’m part of society and have biology…

    I'm saying that you attitude never changed.
    Wrong and how would you even support that assertion?

    You said you went back to some of the sins you called yourself forsaking when you became a christian.
    This would have a shred of validity if I became an atheist to sin. That was not the case. Timeline doesn’t work for you assertion.

    By definition being born-again is not a one time moment….
    This is not how you substantiate an assertion.

    If you think that pointing out that Goid [sic] had chosen in the old covenant to allow slavery is accepting a relativistic morality…
    Yes, it’s relative to your god’s whims theologically. Practically it’s relative to your chosen doctrine. Fred Phelps and Joel Hunter worship the same god as you.

    I know people who have changed from being mean, selfish, and cruel people to being kind, loving,and giving.
    Me too, absent your god. Keep trying.

    I know you hate the butterfly example
    Nope, don’t hate it, just think it’s flawed (and the birth one too), they are analogies, i.e. they are imperfect descriptions. Analogies are not evidence. You need to show, empericially, that the born-again experience is irreversible.

    The difference? We are born-again you are were and are not.
    Yes. You are predisposed to believe. Trust me, it makes a big difference.

    I'm not being invasive.
    No, you are being evasive.

    You don't know if it really happened unless there is change and fruit produced in your life.
    You honestly think there was not a change in my life after I was born-again? You’ll claim there couldn’t have been, but there was. And fruit too. I just now know the source of the change and the fruit. Give yourself some credit…

    It's not about the moment. As I've said and continue to say the moment means nothing without follow up. Being born-again is not a momentary experience. And you didn't follow up.
    You really don’t see how this is simply a theological fail safe for your religion. You need to explain how people can walk away from something that you perceived to be definitely absolutely true and supernatural. I “followed up” for 25 years, and tried desperately to “follow up” for another 5. With all due respect, you can go suck it.

    God told Jacob how to use the sticks and what to do.
    What exactly did the sticks accomplish? This is just you trying to justify superstisious mumbojumbo.

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  10. @ Ryan

    I know I haven't convinced you because you are so rooted in what you think is right.
    Pot calling the kettle black

    You can't prove you right and nothing to back up your assertions.

    If you are right about the source of morality than why would you have standards that you already admit that you don't and cannot perfectly maintain?
    Because I’m part of society and have biology…

    The moral principles I'm referring to were in place before your came on the scene. You could not have played a part in making them. If people made them up, I'm 100% sure people would be able to follow them.

    I'm saying that you attitude never changed.
    Wrong and how would you even support that assertion?

    You weren't born believing the bible is true or that God is real and now you still don't. If you died and was judged now you would not be judged on what you used to believe.

    You said you went back to some of the sins you called yourself forsaking when you became a christian.
    This would have a shred of validity if I became an atheist to sin. That was not the case. Timeline doesn’t work for you assertion.

    We are all sinners from day one. And you claim now that you set your own moral standards. That's sin and hubris.

    By definition being born-again is not a one time moment….
    This is not how you substantiate an assertion.

    The Bible defines the concept. You can't knock down a point by re-defining a concept

    If you think that pointing out that Goid [sic] had chosen in the old covenant to allow slavery is accepting a relativistic morality…
    Yes, it’s relative to your god’s whims theologically. Practically it’s relative to your chosen doctrine. Fred Phelps and Joel Hunter worship the same god as you.

    I disagree with much of Fred Phelps. However, I've said that what it is whatever God says it is. You disagree by saying "My will be done" to the point that you think that God has no real or existence.

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  11. @Ryan

    I know people who have changed from being mean, selfish, and cruel people to being kind, loving,and giving.
    Me too, absent your god. Keep trying.

    But according to God's definition of perfection, are you? No you are not. How do you make up for that? You ignore that the standard exists and make one up for yourself that you can't live up to either.


    I know you hate the butterfly example
    Nope, don’t hate it, just think it’s flawed (and the birth one too), they are analogies, i.e. they are imperfect descriptions. Analogies are not evidence. You need to show, empericially[sic], that the born-again experience is irreversible.

    You still can't explain how a birth is reversible? I was really waiting for that. Instead you say that the analogy is flawed even thought Jesus used it to explain what being "born again" means. I've got to go with Jesus on this. Actually, all of it.

    The difference? We are born-again you are were and are not.
    Yes. You are predisposed to believe. Trust me, it makes a big difference.

    According to scripture we are all predisposed to unbelief, sin, and evil. You just being what the bible says we are without Christ.

    I'm not being invasive.
    No, you are being evasive.

    Still waiting why the butterfly and birth are bad analogies for becoming born again. You are the one being evasive.

    You don't know if it really happened unless there is change and fruit produced in your life.
    You honestly think there was not a change in my life after I was born-again? You’ll claim there couldn’t have been, but there was. And fruit too. I just now know the source of the change and the fruit. Give yourself some credit…

    You give yourself too much credit. The reason why you failed to continue was because God was not in it. Not all the changes stuck did they? You weren't transformed - therefore you weren't born again. But that's okay, because Jesus will still accept you and make it work.

    It's not about the moment. As I've said and continue to say the moment means nothing without follow up. Being born-again is not a momentary experience. And you didn't follow up.
    You really don’t see how this is simply a theological fail safe for your religion. You need to explain how people can walk away from something that you perceived to be definitely absolutely true and supernatural. I “followed up” for 25 years, and tried desperately to “follow up” for another 5. With all due respect, you can go suck it.

    Yes, I know the truth hurts. It's supposed to hurt. Following up means to keep striving. Keep reaching. keep working. Keep trusting. You failed because you have tried it without God's power to keep you. It's not too late for you to do this the right way. I'm praying for you. God still loves you although you have turned your back on Him

    God told Jacob how to use the sticks and what to do.
    What exactly did the sticks accomplish? This is just you trying to justify superstisious[sic] mumbojumbo.

    I'm just reading the text. it does not say what different the sticks made. It's about Jacob obeying God that's all. Which you refuse to do.

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  12. You can't prove you right and nothing to back up your assertions.
    Nor can you.

    The moral principles I'm referring to were in place before your came on the scene.
    No duh, society and biology...

    I'm 100% sure...
    Careful with that.

    If you died and was judged now you would not be judged on what you used to believe.
    Please substantiate the assertion that people are judged when they die.

    And you claim now that you set your own moral standards.
    When did I do that?

    The Bible defines the concept.
    The bible can only be used to substantiate theological assertions.

    But according to God's definition of perfection, are you? No you are not. How do you make up for that?
    When you grow up, you realize perfection is unattainable.

    You still can't explain how a birth is reversible?
    It's not. And of course you've not shown that becoming a christian is anything like a birth.

    Not all the changes stuck did they?
    They did. I'm a better person now then I was then.

    Yes, I know the truth hurts.
    One, it's not the truth, and two, it didn't hurt, but you showed yourself to be a judgmental ass.

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  13. @Ryan

    You can't prove you right and nothing to back up your assertions.
    Nor can you.

    I've go the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. What have you got?

    The moral principles I'm referring to were in place before your came on the scene.
    No duh, society and biology...

    That does not answer the question.
    let me repeat: If morality came from society and biology why is it no one can live up to them?


    I'm 100% sure...
    Careful with that.

    Hebrews 11 - although you don't understand what it means.

    If you died and was judged now you would not be judged on what you used to believe.
    Please substantiate the assertion that people are judged when they die.

    If you were ever born again you would have believed that. Why did you used to accept that? Considering that you were not born-again of course you reject it now. Look think about it: if there is no final judgment there will be people who will get away with the evil and the things they have done. There is no justice, mercy, or grace. If you truly think that is the kind of universe we live in, I'm truly sorry for you. I have no idea why you pretend to be moral or have standards if you really think they don't matter. You have agreed that people are getting away with the evil they do if there is no final judgment.

    And you claim now that you set your own moral standards.
    When did I do that?

    You have said that on several occasions when I asked you by what authority have you set the moral standards by which you live. Pretty silly answer, but that is what you say you believe.

    The Bible defines the concept.
    The bible can only be used to substantiate theological assertions.

    So being "born-again" is not theological? Just because something is theological doesn't mean its a reality. If you deny the reality of regeneration of the human mind and soul by the power of God then you never did experience it. It's okay. You can still have it. God wants you to have it.

    But according to God's definition of perfection, are you? No you are not. How do you make up for that?
    When you grow up, you realize perfection is unattainable.

    I agree that it's unattainable on your own. That is why it didn't work for you. You tried it on your own instead of God doing it for you and through you.

    You still can't explain how a birth is reversible?
    It's not. And of course you've not shown that becoming a christian is anything like a birth.

    That is how the Bible defines being born-again. Bottom line. Baptism symbolizes this new birth. My own experiences and observations bear [pun intended] this out.

    Not all the changes stuck did they?
    They did. I'm a better person now then I was then.

    You can be better. Let Jesus bring you to what God has always purposed you to be.

    Yes, I know the truth hurts.
    One, it's not the truth, and two, it didn't hurt, but you showed yourself to be a judgmental ass.

    Judgmental? You wound me to the quick. Who said I was better than you. I'm just as wretched as you. I deserve hell every bit as much as you do. The difference? Jesus. My sins are covered by his blood. Yours ain't. And given the fact that you blaspheme the Holy Spirit and call the Word of God a lie you couldn't have ever been born-again. Don't continue to deceive yourself. I'm not judging you. God will be doing that.

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  14. I've go [sic] the indwelling of the Holy Spirit
    I'm as sure you don't as you are sure I was never "born again". Actually I'm not that sure as I'm aware of the limits of knowledge, but I'm still pretty sure.

    If morality came from society and biology why is it no one can live up to them?
    Your conflating your magical morals and real ethics. I would maintain people do live up to them. Other people don't.

    If you were ever born again you would have believed that.
    Of course I used to believe it. The rest of you comment is just the Argumentum ad Consequentiam fallacy.

    So being "born-again" is not theological? Just because something is theological doesn't mean its a reality.
    Actually, I'm pretty sure it does mean that. But either way, if it was real, there would be objective, repeatable evidence and you wouldn't need the bible as evidence.

    That is how the Bible defines being born-again.
    See above.

    Bottom line. Baptism symbolizes...
    Symbolizes... yes. Symbols are stylized, imperfect representations.

    My own experiences and observations bear [pun intended] this out.
    I don't get the pun.

    Judgmental? You wound me to the quick. Who said I was better than you. I'm just as wretched as you.
    Stop whining. I doubt you a wretched and I know I am not. You a judgmental ass not because you think you are better than me, but because you think you can know my personal experience.

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  15. I've go [sic] the indwelling of the Holy Spirit
    I'm as sure you don't as you are sure I was never "born again". Actually I'm not that sure as I'm aware of the limits of knowledge, but I'm still pretty sure.

    Believe what you want. God will be holding you accountable.

    If morality came from society and biology why is it no one can live up to them?
    Your conflating your magical morals and real ethics. I would maintain people do live up to them. Other people don't.

    No, I'm not. Let me give an example. Every one agrees that lying is wrong (however some people think its okay given the circumstances they find themselves in but I hardly think anyone would tell their child that they can lie as much as they want). Name a human being who has never lied.

    If you were ever born again you would have believed that.
    Of course I used to believe it. The rest of you comment is just the Argumentum ad Consequentiam fallacy.

    The point was that if you had ever been born again you would believe it now too.

    So being "born-again" is not theological? Just because something is theological doesn't mean its a reality.
    Actually, I'm pretty sure it does mean that. But either way, if it was real, there would be objective, repeatable evidence and you wouldn't need the bible as evidence.

    Every born-again Christian I know has had experience and a change in life, habit, and attitude as I have described it and irrespective of denomination.

    That is how the Bible defines being born-again.
    See above.

    When you were a Christian did you also then reject the way the describes and defines what it means to be born-again. If so, it would explain why you are confused. If you did, why do you now reject what the Bible clearly tells you that being born-again is a new birth - a new creation.

    Bottom line. Baptism symbolizes...
    Symbolizes... yes. Symbols are stylized, imperfect representations.

    The symbols in the Bible really mean to convey important information. But you were not born-again so no wonder you don't see them.

    Judgmental? You wound me to the quick. Who said I was better than you. I'm just as wretched as you.
    Stop whining. I doubt you a wretched and I know I am not. You a judgmental ass not because you think you are better than me, but because you think you can know my personal experience.

    You think you know my personal experiences with God because you didn't have one. Who's being judgmental? I'm just telling you what the text says. I'm sure it's hitting you close to home because it's the truth. Although you failed to keep yourself saved and sanctified, God can do it the right way. You are the one who needs to stop whining. You must be thinking that you wasted 25 years of your life in something that now you think is not true. They were not wasted. Let Jesus redeem those years and the entirety of your life. It's not too late.

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  16. Let me give an example.
    You answered your own question with this one.

    When you were a Christian did you also then reject the way the describes and defines what it means to be born-again.
    No.

    I'm sure it's hitting you close to home because it's the truth.
    No and no.

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  17. Let me give an example.
    You answered your own question with this one.

    So you agree that no one can live up to the standard of never telling a lie. Therefore you were unable to show my point that we have moral standards that cannot have arrived through society or biology because we can't keep them. The watered down morality that people live by that allows you to lie as long as no one gets hurt and/or you don't get caught - that would come from society but no one would say that it's what we should all do. I see a concession from you. Thanks for admitting you were wrong.

    When you were a Christian did you also then reject the way the describes and defines what it means to be born-again.
    No.

    So now you want to redefine what it means to be born-again or pretend its not a reality. News flash: if it is not real you weren't born-again. Therefore it is silly to keep arguing that you were. They both can't be true. we agree: you weren't born again. the disagreement is that I'm saying that you can be born again and do it right this time. You have not experienced what I have experienced.

    I'm sure it's hitting you close to home because it's the truth.
    No and no.

    Let's be clear: I'm not saying you left Christianity because you wanted to fornicate or lie or steal. I'm saying that you left because you decided you wanted to determine what was true and real instead of what God says. The Bible defines this as idolatry and sin. You need to repent.

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  18. So you agree that no one can live up to the standard of never telling a lie.
    I agree that probably no one can't not tell a lie, but as the rest of your original comment pointed out, that's really not the standard.

    So now you want to redefine what it means to be born-again or pretend its not a reality.
    Not redefine, just I have a better understanding of what it actually is now that I'm on the other side of it.

    The Bible defines this as idolatry and sin.
    Big surprise that a religious text doesn't think people should try to determine what is true and real and should instead rely on said religious text. Go figure...

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  19. So you agree that no one can live up to the standard of never telling a lie.
    I agree that probably no one can't not tell a lie, but as the rest of your original comment pointed out, that's really not the standard.

    There it is: the inevitable backpedal. are you really ready to argue that lying is okay in this society?

    So now you want to redefine what it means to be born-again or pretend its not a reality.
    Not redefine, just I have a better understanding of what it actually is now that I'm on the other side of it.

    I don't think you have a good understanding of being being born-again. You completely dodge the point. If being "born-again" is not real, then you can't say that you was. I'm saying that it is real and you weren't. the most consistent thing you can do now is agree that you were not born again. Then we can look at if it real or not.

    The Bible defines this as idolatry and sin.
    Big surprise that a religious text doesn't think people should try to determine what is true and real and should instead rely on said religious text. Go figure...

    The bible constantly tells us to examine everyth8ing to see if it's true. The fact that you came up with the wrong answers just goes to show the Bible is right about us needing God's help to do so. Quit kicking against the pricks and just repent already.

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  20. are you really ready to argue that lying is okay in this society?
    Yes, and I'll just reference you back to your own comments.

    If being "born-again" is not real, then you can't say that you was.
    I'm saying if you actually had a portion of the supreme creator and upholder of the universe indwelling with you, your grammar would be better. You may laugh this comment off, but seriously, think about it...

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  21. are you really ready to argue that lying is okay in this society?
    Yes, and I'll just reference you back to your own comments.

    That's being dishonest. No one wants to be known as a liar. It's not held up as what we ought to be. It's insult to be accused of lying. I expected better argument from you.

    If being "born-again" is not real, then you can't say that you was.
    I'm saying if you actually had a portion of the supreme creator and upholder of the universe indwelling with you, your grammar would be better. You may laugh this comment off, but seriously, think about it...

    Actually the fact that the best comeback you could come up with was to complain about my grammar? Rather pathetic. The Holy Spirit is not a piece of the supreme being. You keep showing that you do not know the Bible or Christian doctrine as well as you think you do. No wonder you are an apostate. No wonder you lack an even basic understanding of the Trinity.

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  22. That's being dishonest.
    It's never as black and white as you would like.
    Guy: How you doing?
    Guy with bad bad back and head cold who's wife just walked out on him: Good.

    No wonder you lack an even basic understanding of the Trinity.
    I believe when pressed, you admitted to a similar lack of understanding of the trinity. I suppose you are just an apostate in waiting... Perhaps you could point me to the verses that show I'm wrong?

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  23. Actually the fact that the best comeback you could come up with was to complain about my grammar? Rather pathetic.

    You really didn't address my point. What quantifiable difference do you possess due to having the holy spirit in you? This will need to be something unique that cannot be obtained any other way, religious or secular, and (if you want me to believe you) it'll most definitely need to be quantifiable.

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  24. That's being dishonest.
    It's never as black and white as you would like.
    Guy: How you doing?
    Guy with bad bad back and head cold who's wife just walked out on him: Good.

    It's still hiding the truth. And according to the Bible that's a lie. If you think that's okay to do, it just means that you don't have as high standards as God. That's okay. None of us do nor meet that standard. That is why it takes God to help us obey God.

    No wonder you lack an even basic understanding of the Trinity.
    I believe when pressed, you admitted to a similar lack of understanding of the trinity. I suppose you are just an apostate in waiting... Perhaps you could point me to the verses that show I'm wrong?

    Easy enough. I understand the Trinity better than you. there is one God. the Father is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. If you want to know more just look at this blog under Trinity and read the articles i wrote and linked to.

    Actually the fact that the best comeback you could come up with was to complain about my grammar? Rather pathetic.

    You really didn't address my point. What quantifiable difference do you possess due to having the holy spirit in you? This will need to be something unique that cannot be obtained any other way, religious or secular, and (if you want me to believe you) it'll most definitely need to be quantifiable.

    No i got you point and it begged the question why would having the Holy Spirit make me a better typist or grammarian than you? It's a funny assumption to make because you misspell and make typos too. Where does the Bible say that's proof? Really flawed logic. You want to know what quantifiable evidence there is that I have the holy spirit and you don't? Given that the Bible says you can only live a born-again existence with the help of the Spirit and you gave up after 25 years and I've been saved and believing for 30 years is evidence of what I have been given. There is more but you can't prove it without knowing me and spending time with me.

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  25. And according to the Bible that's a lie
    You weren't talking about the bible, you were talking about society. See how you conflate everything?

    If you want to know more just look at this blog under Trinity and read the articles i wrote and linked to.
    I'll take that as a no. OK.

    why would having the Holy Spirit make me a better typist or grammarian than you?
    Seriously, think about it, you, tiny little Marcus living on this speck of dirt planet in a mundane corner of a mundane galaxy in the midst of hundreds of billions of other galaxies... let that sink in....

    OK? ... in the midst of hundreds of billions of other galaxies, you, little Marcus, have residing in you the spirit of the being that has the power to create and sustain the entire universe... the entire universe... one more time... the entire universe...

    I'm just saying I think that actually would make you a better typist is all...

    Not trying to be funny.

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  26. There is more but you can't prove it without knowing me and spending time with me.

    Funny you should say that...

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  27. And according to the Bible that's a lie
    You weren't talking about the bible, you were talking about society. See how you conflate everything?

    See how you dodge the weight of sin? I was saying that everyone has to agree that it's a lie, but don't think it's worthy of condemnation. The Bible tells us that God doesn't see it that way.

    If you want to know more just look at this blog under Trinity and read the articles i wrote and linked to.
    I'll take that as a no. OK.

    Explains why you don't understand what you read.

    why would having the Holy Spirit make me a better typist or grammarian than you?
    Seriously, think about it, you, tiny little Marcus living on this speck of dirt planet in a mundane corner of a mundane galaxy in the midst of hundreds of billions of other galaxies... let that sink in....

    OK? ... in the midst of hundreds of billions of other galaxies, you, little Marcus, have residing in you the spirit of the being that has the power to create and sustain the entire universe... the entire universe... one more time... the entire universe...

    I'm just saying I think that actually would make you a better typist is all...

    Not trying to be funny.

    Good because you are not funny. No where in the entire bible does it say good typing is a gift of the spirit when you are born-again. Without Jesus changing you and you really becoming born-again, you are going to hell. Let that sink in. Is that funny? I don't think so.

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  28. Marcus; I think you know I'm not just talking about typing...

    I'm not going to hell and you're not going to heaven.

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  29. @Ryan

    The Bible disagrees with you. Too bad you loose.

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  30. You doubt what? That the Bible is true or what I have said that the Bible says?

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  31. Specifically I doubt what the bible says about heaven and hell is true, and in general I doubt your ability to correctly interpreted it.

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  32. @Ryan


    Specifically I doubt what the bible says about heaven and hell is true, and in general I doubt your ability to correctly interpreted it.


    Is your skepticism regarding what the Bible says about heaven and hell or that the Bible discusses them at all? And you have failed to show me saying something that the Bible does not say just like you failed to show that the Bible is false.

    You ought to just give up while you are behind.

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  33. Is your skepticism regarding what the Bible says about heaven and hell or that the Bible discusses them at all?

    I believe the authors of the various books of the bible were talking out of their asses when they made claims about heaven, hell, souls, god, angels, deamons, the devil, the creation of the universe/earth/humanity, global floods, and many other subjects.

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  34. Definitely shows how much you know. Wonder what did God ever did to you?

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  35. Wonder what did God ever did to you?

    Nothing. Nothing can't do anything to someone.

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  36. Then why do you feel it necessary to insult the Bible?

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  37. Why do you insult the Iliad by insisting Achilies was not really the born of a Nymph? It's not an insult, it's an statement about it's veracity.

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  38. When have I made a single statement about Achilles? On top of that you said "I believe the authors of the various books of the bible were talking out of their asses when they made claims about heaven, hell, souls, god, angels, deamons, the devil, the creation of the universe/earth/humanity, global floods, and many other subjects."

    Aside from the profanity, I fail to see how this is telling anything about the truth about what the Bible says. Instead it tells your emotional opinion of it. Definitely an assertion of your own stupidity.

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  39. Adding the word "ass" doesn't make my statement any more or less emotional.

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  40. In the context in the way you used it can be nothing more than emotional...and adds nothing to a statement being true. As I said, quite sad. So illogical you can't even see it.

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  41. In the context in the way you used it can be nothing more than emotional...

    Says you. Actually, it was used to denote casualness since I was talking about my opinion and not making a formal argument.

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  42. @Ryan

    Actually, it was used to denote casualness since I was talking about my opinion and not making a formal argument.

    Awesome backpedal! You had said

    It's not an insult, it's an statement about it's veracity.

    Classic but not classy.

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  43. Awesome backpedal!

    No.

    Classic but not classy.

    What does that even mean?

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  44. @Ryan

    Classic but not classy.

    What does that even mean?

    At risk of the irony being lost on you, I will explain it any way. I expected you to backpedal. It's the classic argumentation tactic many atheists use: Make an arguments long on emotion and short on fact. You said:

    "I believe the authors of the various books of the bible were talking out of their asses when they made claims about heaven, hell, souls, god, angels, deamons, the devil, the creation of the universe/earth/humanity, global floods, and many other subjects."


    It's not classy at all.

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  45. I'm not sure you know what "irony" means.

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