Tuesday, July 12, 2011

Habitable zone - Controversy

You may or may not be aware of a discussion with an atheist named Ryan Anderson regarding the fact that he believes that Dr Hugh Ross is wrong when he wrote:

"If the Earth were one half of one percent closer to the sun, water on Earth would boil off. If the Earth were one half of one percent farther from the sun, all the water would freeze." (More Than A Theory)

However the statement does not exist in More Than A Theory. He attributes the quote to have been made on then John Ankerberg show, but I wonder if he saw it because the following book references the same thing:
Atheist Universe: The Thinking Person's Answer to Christian Fundamentalism By David Mills on page 250. You can read the exchange om my post: Faithful Thinkers: Audio: Major Creation/Evolution Models

Unfortunately, Anderson took things way to far alleging that Ross is dishonest and worst or doesn't know what he is talking about at best (about the Habitable zone and Creation/Evolution models). Anderson commented the following:

Also, it should be noted that as far as I know, Hugh Ross has never backed away from his absurd claim that "If the earth were 0.5% closer to the sun it would broil and if it was 0.5% farther from the sun it would freeze." [paraphrase]. The only reason I can think of for someone with a "PhD" to make such a clearly demonstratably false claim is to mislead. But that's par for the course with creationist, regardless of their "camp".

And today he said:

Actually, if you make an assertion that's wildly outside the range of what is currently thought to be the case, you have an obligation to substantiate that assertion.

He's [Dr Hugh Ross] actually a good example of why, as a layman, one should look for consensus among scientist rather than looking at one scientist. There are bad ones in every profession. But you of course will only look at the scientist that support the positions you want to believe.

Yes, indeed it is important to look at the balance of consensus among experts to determine if something is true or not. However we know that consensus does not always equal truth. There was once a consensus that the Earth was flat. And another that the whole universe revolved around the Earth. But the value of consensus is not issue now. Let's see if with simple back of the envelope calculation if we can figure out if  Dr Ross is wrong in the numbers he is proposing. First the Habitable zone is the range of distance from sun in which the earth retains liquid water. Any closer the water boils and evaporates. Farther and the water freezes.  The distance of the Earth to the Sun is called an Astronomical Unit (AU) which is about 93 x 106 (93 million) miles. For the sake of this calculation I am approximating the earth's orbit as a circle although it is elliptical. I am also taking the range of the Habitable Zone from the following Wikipedia page:

Habitable zone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


INNER edge OUTER edge References Notes
0.725 AU 1.24 AU Dole 1964 [18] Used optically thin atmospheres and fixed albedos.
0.95 AU 1.01 AU Hart et al. 1978, 1979 [19] stars K0 or later cannot have HZs
0.95 AU 3.0 AU Fogg 1992 [20] Used Carbon cycles.
0.95 AU 1.37 AU Kasting et al. 1993 [21]
1%–2% farther out Budyko 1969 [22] ... and Earth would have global glaciation.
1%–2% farther out Sellers 1969 [23] ... and Earth would have global glaciation.
1%–2% farther out North 1975 [24] ... and Earth would have global glaciation.
4%–7% closer Rasool & DeBurgh 1970 [25] ... and oceans would never have condensed.
Schneider and Thompson 1980 [26] disagreed with Hart.
Kasting 1991 [27]
Kasting 1988 [28] Water clouds can shrink HZ as they counter GHG effect with higher albedos.
Ramanathan and Collins 1991 [29] GHG effect IR trapping is greater than water cloud albedo cooling, and Venus would have to have started "Dry."
Lovelock 1991 [30]
Whitemire et al. 1991 [31]

Let's take the Hart et al. 1978, 1979 reference of 0.95 AU  to 1.01 AU  for the range of the Habitable Zone. Imagine 3 concentric circles. Then inner one has a Radius of 0.95 AU, the middle has a radius of  1 AU and the outer has a radius of  1.01AU.


So what is the distance from the earth's orbit to the inner boundary of the habitable zone?

1 - 0.95 =  0.05  meaning 0.05 AU

What about from the earth to the outer boundary of the habitable zone?

1.01 - 1 = 0.01 - meaning 0.01 AU

If you want to know percentages of AU you take the differences and divide them by AU. This gives  - 0.05 and  + 0.01 .

This is well within the consensus of 0.725 AU to 3 AU. We know that any number anyone grabs from the air is an estimate and an approximation - averages. Not wrong, but nothing to assassinate a man's character over. It is obvious that Dr Ross is using Habitable Zone ranges like 0.99 AU and 1.01 AU.Again: well within the consensus range. Ryan Anderson claims to be a layman yet feels like he knows enough to criticize a professional astronomer. Anyone who knows something about Physics and published numbers know that such nitpicking is silly.
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10 comments:

  1. I said Actually, if you make an assertion that's wildly outside the range...

    I can see why this confused you. I should have said "different" rather than "outside".

    The bottom line is Ross made an unsubstantiated assertion about an extremely narrow habitable zone that is "wildly different" in size from the ranges that the majority of astronomers hold. He did this because he wanted to lead the ignorant (and the willfully ignorant, you Marcus) to his predetermined conclusion, i.e. design.

    Your only defense of course is semantics. "Well of course he's within the range, hayuk hayuk..." Nice work.

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  2. Everyone agrees that outside of that Habitable Range (and everyone agrees that it is small) liquid water and life is impossible. Even the largest numbers are relatively small as I showed. You are so willfully ignorance and myopic that you can't see design.

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  3. You don't seem to understand that ANYTHING that uses the earth as it's center point and is less than 0.725 AU to 3 AU is "within the consensus range" by your standard, but that's stupid because by the standard you are using here, a habitable zone of one inch (0.0000000000000169 AUs) is "within the consensus range".

    If you think the difference between Ross' range (0.01) and the next smallest range (0.06) is not significantly different, then the level of intellectual dishonesty here is far worse than I imagined. This is one of those moments where I can't imagine any alternative between you lying to yourself or simply being stupid.

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  4. Just how big is 0.01 AU vs 0.06 AU

    1.00 AU = 93,000,000 miles
    0.01 AU = 930,000 miles
    0.06 AU = 5,580,000 miles

    When you are talking about number on the magnitude at which we are talking about in Physics, a factor of ten is not a big enough difference to get all worked up over. 6% and 1% are not even large enough to loose sleep over let alone call another man's credibility into question. But what else can we expect from Ryan. He is a layman after all.

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  5. Digits are significant when they are significant and they are not when they are not. Percentages are percentages, no matter how large or small the numbers you are talking about are. If a factor of ten represents a 5% change, then it very significant.

    You've given up any pretense of actual science here.

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  6. Says the layman who does not know what is significant and what isn't.

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  7. Says the layman who does not know what is significant and what isn't.

    Percentages are percentages. If a factor of ten represents a 5% change, then it very significant.

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  8. Percentages are percentages. If a factor of ten represents a 5% change, then it very significant.

    Percentages mean nothing unless you know what they are percentages are of. The larger the numbers, the smaller percentages are relative to each other.

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  9. The larger the numbers, the smaller percentages are relative to each other.

    Making a difference between 1% and 6% all the more significant given the size of the numbers. You went to Berkeley, right?

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  10. It makes the numbers smaller. May be you should add arithmetic to your remedial reading.

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