Wednesday, July 13, 2011

Responding to: Allah is uniquely one (refutation of the Trinity) Part 1

Today thegrandverbalizer  posted two blog posts on the Trinity today. The amazing thing is that he doesn't seem to recognize how he is mis-stating what Christians believe. If I did the same with Islam he'd be livid but he can't seem to be bothered to see how inconsistent he's being in his arguments.. He seems to think that he has listened to Dr. James White's presentation yet he persists in getting the Bible's teachings wrong. I have little change in explaining it to him so that he will understand but I'll try anyway.

Recently while talking to a believer in Tri-theism (the belief in three all powerful gods that join together and work as a unified team) other wise known as 'Trinity' something also occurred to me.

One more time. Say it with me slowly: "Trinity" does not equal "Tri-thesism".  Tri-theism is just polytheism and no Christian is into polytheism.

One of the glaring and obvious things one notices about the Trinity is that God is not a singular being that has something that no one or nothing else shares.

God is a singular Being.  Given that "Being" and "person" are not the same thing. It's possible to have more than one person in the same being.  One person does not have to mean one person.

The doctrine of the Trinity is that God is One Team ( a group of three that co exist together). Of course this is a philosophical presupposition about the creator that does not have CLEAR revelation to back it up. It is the product of theological debates and musings about the divine.

Again with the "Team". There is no CLEAR revelation to back up the notion that God is "ONE TEAM" because that is not what Christians are arguing in favor of. We don't believe that either. Do you know what it's called when you are argue against a position that is not being claimed and then pretend to win the argument? It's call a "straw man" and thegrandverbalizer just showed a perfect example.

In the Trinity doctrine God is not singularly unique. In fact it makes little sense to speak about 'God' when talking to Trinitarians. They believe in gods. God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and God the Father.

No we don't. The Bible tells us there is only one God. It also tells us the Father is God. The son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. This is 1 X 1 X 1 =1 not 1 + 1 + 1 = 1.   1 + 1 + 1 = 1  is stupid and not what Trinitarians are saying!

The problem with their theological presupposition is saying that God is One Team (a group comprising of three gods that co exist together) is that you could say based upon that same presupposition that God is One Team (comprising a hundred gods that co exist together).

Not three gods. You can't split up the God into components then cry out "It doesn't make sense!" thegrandverbalizers and those who don't understand what we are saying think that. No one is saying anything about a team, but thegrandverbalizer.

In the Trinity God is not Singularly Unique. In fact there is nothing singularly unique about the creator. The Creator is not allowed to have a unique oneness that is not shared.

One can argue with another human being all one likes. The bottom line is that God is that God is bigger and more complex than just our simple understanding of what being and personhood are.  In Christian Trinity, God is not a team of God but  a single being such that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God at the same time  and neither one is more or less God than the other at any time.  It's a unique oneness that can't be duplicated nor experienced completely. Marriage - the union of a man and a woman - is the only thing anywhere close to that sort of union we can experience in the here and now and that more closely mirrors Jesus and the Church .  See Ephesians 5:22-24

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
What ever the Father has the Son also has. What ever the Son has is also shared by the Holy Spirit.

and 1 Corinthians 11:3

But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

For example you could have two black shoe boxes. They could be exactly identical in shape and volume. However, the only thing that makes one unique from the other is the space that the other occupies. That would be 'unique' to it as a shoe box.

Bad analogy. Jesus said

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Just how much space do you think God takes up?

However, with in the Trinity there is no way to define God as one without immediately bringing another number into the picture; the number three.

Not an issue as long as remember the distinction between "being" and "person".

Philosophical jargon is quick to enter into the picture in a discussion with even the most astute Trinitarian. They will tell you that they believe that God is one sure; but they will quantify what they mean by saying 'We believe God is one in essence but is comprised of Three persons'.

So if thegrandverbalizer hears what Christians are saying why does he go after straw men?

When asked to define what they mean by persons more philosophical jargon enters and one is hard pressed to get a proper definition of person.

Rather nice assertion. Like the way he just throws that out there and doesn't substantiate it. In a previous thread he remarked that an understand of what "being" and "person"  mean in Hebrew, Aramaic, Kione Greek, English, and Arabic is in order to really get at the heart of the discussion. I agree. I'm preparing such a discussion even now.

So what you end up with is Tri-theism that tries to mask itself as monotheism and tries to distance itself from modalism.

So does Islam embrace modalism. I'm not a Muslim and I freely admit that I am not qualified to make a judgment on that.  However, equating Tri-thesim with the Trinity when one knows that is not what we are saying is just dishonest.

The Qur'an lays down the truth

Say: Allah is One (Absolute)
Allah is Unique.
Allah begots not
nor is Allah begotten.
And there is NOTHING LIKE unto Allah.
(Holy Qur'an chapter 112:1-4)\

More assertion. "begotten" and "begot:" is thought of as the way people procreate and that is not what Christians believe about Jesus. 

As to Allah's nature Allah's being (dhat) or essence is One. The Trinitarians can make such a claim They may say, "We believe God's essence (being) is One" However it is a fallacious claim.

No it's not. We can't help it if one cannot see a difference between "being" and "person". God is indeed unique. There is nothing or anything like God anywhere.

They do not believe that God's essence is One, because God's essence is SHARED. They believe that God's essence (being) is shared by THREE. 


Thegrandverbalizer would have a point if God's being was shared by more than one being.  No Christian would argue that each person in the Trinity is a separate being. 

Note for example what Protestant Christian apologist James White says here:

It is necessary here to distinguish between the terms "being" and "person." It would be a contradiction, obviously, to say that there are three beings within one being, or three persons within one person. So what is the difference? We clearly recognize the difference between being and person every day. We recognizewhat something is, yet we also recognize individuals within a classification. For example, we speak of the "being" of man---human being. A rock has "being"---the being of a rock, as does a cat, a dog, etc. Yet, we also know that there are personal attributes as well. That is, we recognize both "what" and "who" when we talk about a person.

Amen. He's quoting Dr. James White.

The Bible tells us there are three classifications of personal beings---God, man, and angels. What is personality? The ability to have emotion, will, to express oneself. Rocks cannot speak. Cats cannot think of themselves over against others, and, say, work for the common good of "cat kind." Hence, we are saying that there is one eternal, infinite being of God, shared fully and completely by three persons, Father, Son and Spirit. One what, three who's.


Note the philosophical jargon. When White says above "It would be a contradiction, obviously, to say that there are three beings within one being, or three persons within one person." what White does not tell you is that it is not a contradiction to say "there are three beings that share one being, or three persons that share one person."

Dr White didn't say that because those are indeed contradictions and not what we believe.  Back of the rails thegrandverbalizer goes! 

Also the last sentence something he left out. "Hence, we are saying that there is one eternal, infinite being of God, shared fully and completely by three persons, Father, Son and Spirit. One what, three who's.

What White didn't tell you is "One what, three who's that share FULLY and COMPLETELY One What"

No, he is saying three who's that share FULLY and COMPLETELY One What.

They therefore in reality do not believe that God's essence is One. If they truly believe that than God's essence is one what?

It can't be ONE if it is SHARED by THREE. The being cannot be Unique to One if it is also SHARED by THREE.

Three what? Again he's right if we are saying the one being is  shared by three beings but  we are not saying that!

Now I can claim that a rock has being fair enough. However, if I claim that rock and it's being (time and place everything about it) is shared FULLY and EQUALLY by atleast two other rocks I cannot in all honestly look you straight in the face and than claim I believe in a rock that is Unique in it's being.

No one is saying that we are talking about time and place when talking about the nature of God. God is timeless and omnipresent. There is no place or Time God is not. I thought that Muslims agreed with that. You can't get any more unique than that. 

If we start to take this approach we have already left the pure and safe road. We have left the creed of safety. Allah no longer has that which no one or nothing else has because Allah's being is not unique. Allah's being is shared. Than to turn around and couch this in philosophical language and claim to the people of La Ilaha illa lah (there is no God except God) that you worship the God of Abraham and that you are monotheistic is frankly insulting. You insult yourselves, and when you look into your own hearts you will come face to face with the monstrosity of that doctrine which was forged and formulated in Church councils and couched in Greek Philosophical verbiage.

Insulting? I'm still waiting for an apology for butchering what I believe and saying that I believe things that I don't as a Trinitarian.

May Allah protect us and keep us on the way that is straight! I call all the Christians who believe in Trinity (Tri-theism) back to the worship of the One True God.
Heaping insult on top of insult. One last time Tri-theism does not equal Trinity. 

Islam and Christianity A Common Word: Allah is uniquely one (refutation of the Trinity)
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  1. Islamic dogma: "There is no God but Allah."
    Atheist dogmatheism: "There is no God."

    There is nothing as discrediting as when one argues against a straw man or, in this case a straw god.

    Thegrandverbalizer must have missed the past few millennia’s worth of Christian literature on the subject of the Trinity.

    Here is one such list of Trinity texts:

    Then again, perhaps he is “learning” about Christian theology from Richard Dawkins who counts Mormonism as a monotheistic religion (The God Delusion, p. 36).

    Note what Richard Lewontin stated (whilst reviewing a Carl Sagan book):

    “What seems absurd depends on one's prejudice. Carl Sagan accepts, as I do, the duality of light, which is at the same time wave and particle, but he thinks that the consubstantiality of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost puts the mystery of the Holy Trinity 'in deep trouble.' Two's company, but three's a crowd.”

  2. James White was indeed right: "Inconsistency is proof of a failed argument. " Thanks, Mariano.