Saturday, October 8, 2011

Faithful Thinkers: Video: Purpose For The World

Luke Nix has posted a video of Dr Norman Geisler answering the question about what the purpose for the World is.




I think the best answer is the Biblical one:

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. - Colossians 1:15-17

I don't totally agree with Norman Geisler. Everyone of us understand and feels that this world in it's present state is far from perfect. We have tons of suffering of every kind on an unimaginable scale and pervasiveness. Some of what we experience is self-inflicted. some is inflicted on us by others, and some of it seems to have no discernible cause or intent. Why?

1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
 5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
 18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.  22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
 26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. - Romans 8:1-30

Faithful Thinkers: Video: Purpose For The World
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23 comments:

  1. Is it really so difficult to think that the world has no purpose?

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  2. Take a second and really consider that comment

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  3. Not willing to answer the question?

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  4. It's extremely difficult to think the world has no purpose with a straight face.

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  5. Your turn to answer my question: If the world has no purpose do you?

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  6. Yes, it's possible for a person to create purpose.

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  7. Like what (what do you mean when you use the word "purpose"? Why does it matter? Because you so? What about people who make it their purpose to deny you yours?

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  8. Like what (what do you mean when you use the word "purpose"?

    I like the mystery parathesis. Purpose = meaning.

    Why does it matter?

    Why? Why not? To me it my purpose matters, to the universe, it doesn't.

    Because you so?

    ???

    What about people who make it their purpose to deny you yours?

    These things happen. Stop whining...

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  9. Asking the question is not whining. IF it's whining to ask the question then even bringing up the "problem of evil" amounts to whining.

    Just because the "purpose" you have concocted does not make it meaningful. Why should I care about your purpose, if it doesn't matter to anyone but you. I think you are basically saying your life has no meaning outside of what you think it is. Why bother?

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  10. Why should I care about your purpose.

    I don't care if you do.

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  11. "Because you so?" was a typo: Because you do [Matter]?

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  12. I don't care if you do.

    Get real. If you didn't you wouldn't care so much about "correcting" my blog. You are so funny!

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  13. If you didn't you wouldn't care so much about "correcting" my blog.

    Um, this is entertainment, a diversion... Why do you think this has anything to do with meaning and/or a requirement for one to care about someone else's self-created meaning?

    Also, why is it so difficult for you to consider that the world has no purpose?

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  14. If this is your idea of "entertainment", your life is even more meaningless than I thought.

    Sad.

    Given how short life is, you must think very little of it. Given that you don't see any meaning to life outside of what you decide it is, no wonder you don't think anything about wasting your time.

    I have considered the possibility that the world has no purpose but I rejected that because Jesus would not have come died and been resurrected if there was no purpose. On top of that, it would mean that there would not be any purpose for all the evil around us and nothing to stand on as an objective reason to stand against it. It becomes merely my predilections against others. Why would mine be right and theirs wrong?

    Added to that. I didn't make me. You didn't make you. Why would you think you know what your purpose is? Without purpose and meaning, how do you live? You merely exist. If Socrates was right when he said:

    The unexamined life is not worth living.
    Socrates, in Plato, Dialogues, Apology
    Greek philosopher in Athens (469 BC - 399 BC)


    then how much do you think a live, lived without purpose is worth?

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  15. how much do you think a life lived without purpose is worth?

    In case you don't know the answer: it's worth nothing.

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  16. OK, so your belief in ultimate, non-subjective purpose is driven by wishful thinking. Gotcha...

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  17. I don't know how you got wishful thinking from that.You could demonstrate that it isn't true instead of wishing is wasn't true. Oh,yeah. That's right. I almost forgot. You can't. Like to see you try however. Might help that meaningless boring life you have.

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  18. I don’t know how you got wishful thinking from that.

    You’ve not demonstrated or made any arguments that the world actually has purpose. You’ve simple asserted the following…

    I rejected that [the world has no purpose] but because Jesus would not have come died and been resurrected if there was no purpose.

    …there would not be any purpose for all the evil around us and nothing to stand on as an objective reason to stand against it.

    …all of which is just you wishing for a specific conclusion.

    Also, I agree with what Plato said Socrates said. But I fail to see what that has to do with the world having objective purpose. You are conflating (possibly intentionally) external purpose in the universe with subjective individual purpose. Why do you think the latter can’t exist without the former?

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  19. Also, I agree with what Plato said Socrates said. But I fail to see what that has to do with the world having objective purpose. You are conflating (possibly intentionally) external purpose in the universe with subjective individual purpose. Why do you think the latter can’t exist without the former?

    If you think that unexamined life is meaningless, how can you not conclude that your life is meaningless if the universe has no meaning? It's obvious you fail to see the relation because you think that not having an objective individual purpose is acceptable. My question is why should your imagined purpose matter to anyone but you especially if if clashes with someone else? Your purpose does not exist in a vacuum and does affect others. The fact that you can't have a purpose without impacting those around you, or having been influenced by those who came before, or impinging on those who will follow has to inform one that there must be something bigger and more important than just you and your predilections or wish-fulfillment or petty desires. You owe everything you have and ever will be to others.

    Your purpose should be bigger than you because like it or not - it is bigger than you.

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  20. If you think that unexamined life is meaningless, how can you not conclude that your life is meaningless if the universe has no meaning?

    Um, because my life is not unexamined?

    It's obvious you fail to see the relation because you think that not having an objective individual purpose is acceptable.

    A relationship you've only asserted and never demonstrated.

    My question is why should your imagined purpose matter to anyone but you especially if if clashes with someone else?

    It doesn't necessarily.

    Your purpose does not exist in a vacuum and does affect others.

    Right.

    The fact that you can't have a purpose without impacting those around you, or having been influenced by those who came before, or impinging on those who will follow...

    Only has to inform one that they are part of one or many social groups and not in a vacuum.

    ...there must be something bigger and more important than just you...

    Family, culture, society, the state, etc... No need to posit the divine here.

    Your purpose should be bigger than you because like it or not - it is bigger than you.

    Yeah no duh genius...

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  21. Um, because my life is not unexamined?

    So you know your life is meaningless.

    It [one's purpose clashes with another] doesn't necessarily.

    Inevitably, you "self-created" purpose is going to conflict with someone else in some way at some point. What happens then? Who's is right? Who's is more important.

    Family, culture, society, the state, etc... No need to posit the divine here.

    Same issue. There are conflicts and clashes. Is your family more important than someone else. And I thought you said your purpose was "self-created"? All you did was move the goal post without any explanation.

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  22. So you know your life is meaningless.

    Wow, simply wow. Are you dense? Or do you simply care more about scoring semantic points over actual understanding? The world/universe has no ultimate purpose, however, we all have subjective created purpose, or can, if you chose to interpret “the world has no ultimate purpose” as “your life is meaningless”, well that’s ultimately you loss and just sad.

    Inevitably, you [sic] "self-created" purpose is going to conflict with someone else in some way at some point. What happens then? Who's is right? Who's is more important.

    Who says anyone’s is more important? But as to what happens, just take a look outside. The courts generally decide who’s right, if it gets to that level, otherwise, social groups decide informally, family, friends, congregations, society, etc…

    Is your family more important than someone else.

    To me, yes, to someone else, no.

    And I thought you said your purpose was "self-created"?

    It is, but there are multiple factors. Do you honestly think society, family, culture, etc… have no influence on the individual and on their self-created purpose? But on the other hand, we as individuals also influence society, family, culture, etc… It’s a feedback loop.

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  23. Wow, simply wow. Are you dense? Or do you simply care more about scoring semantic points over actual understanding? The world/universe has no ultimate purpose, however, we all have subjective created purpose, or can, if you chose to interpret “the world has no ultimate purpose” as “your life is meaningless”, well that’s ultimately you loss and just sad.

    I'm not saying that I Know everything in reality has a purpose and your inability to point to an objective purpose shows your vanity and not what reality is. Get it straight. The loss is yours...just like this argument.

    Who says anyone’s is more important? But as to what happens, just take a look outside. The courts generally decide who’s right, if it gets to that level, otherwise, social groups decide informally, family, friends, congregations, society, etc…

    Exactly my point: you can point to no reason why I should think your family is as important or deserving of any level of respect as any other. You are forced to conclude that genocide and crimes against humanity are viable and valid if there isn't anyone around strong enough to stop it. Remember that when your time to suffer comes.

    To me, yes, to someone else, no.

    Not to me. Your family is just as important and just as deserving to be treated well and live just as much mine is. Under your worldview, you can't substantiate that. I hope you believe that all people are worthy of the same standard of respect and kindness, although you're woefully inconsistent if you do.

    It is, but there are multiple factors. Do you honestly think society, family, culture, etc… have no influence on the individual and on their self-created purpose? But on the other hand, we as individuals also influence society, family, culture, etc… It’s a feedback loop.

    You still did not answer the question. Let me ask it another way: What do you when someone else decides that you and yours are not worthy of breathing the same air as they? Are they right?

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