Wednesday, June 13, 2012

FacePalm of the Day - Debunking Christianity: Christianity-- A Disingenuous Religion Based on Lies and Deception

Cathy Cooper has posted another blog post ranting against Christianity. It's unfortunately that there are many who erroneously think the same way she does. An understanding of what the scripture actually says not the rhetoric spewed out by those ignorant of God more than clears up the problems she keeps posting about.

According to the video below, C. Michael Patton, Th.M. and Tim Kimberley, Th.M of Credo House, describe how, when believers are presented before Yahweh, their own resumes could never measure up, so instead, they must submit the resume that belongs to Jesus in order to be "saved" and this post will explain how this analogy illustrates how disingenuous the Bible and Christianity is at its core. The video is based on the verses in Ephesians 2:8-9, which many Christians believe relieves them of any responsibility for their "sins"--for they believe that as long as they have this "gift" of "grace," they will be "saved."

Notice that "gift of God" is not a release from responsibility. Notice how she leaves out verse 10. Maybe she missed it.

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions —it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. - Ephesians 2:1-10


Look at the whole context of the passage. Why does the pardoning of our sins come as a gift? Because we don't deserve it. It's grace and mercy - God choosing to hold back the wrath that we deserve. We are not being let go unscathed. In order to get this gift, one must agree that you are a sinner and need a savior - that God is right. You are noit being declared innocent, but "not guilty". And  it is not about the good works you do because they don't offset the offenses you are guilty of. We are not saved by our own good works but so that we can  do greater good works. 







"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."  Ephesians 2:8-9

Cathy has indeed pointed out a great video. It is part six of a ten part series on 10 myths people believe about God.  I recommend watching all 10. Link

In Ephesians, Paul explains that "grace" is a "gift"--it has nothing to do with what a person does, and Yahweh chooses at his whim whom he bestows his "grace" upon. (Eph. 1:5) It could be a rapist, or a murderer--it's all up to Yahweh, as Yahweh PREDESTINED those he bestows his "grace" upon, just as he PREDESTINED those that are damned.

Um no. EVERYONE is bound for hell unless God has predestined them for Heaven. No one's fate is up in the air and then God makes a decision determining if they go to Hell or go to Heaven. If God does nothing you go to hell.  Hell is default. What makes Cathy or anyone else think that they are better than the murderer or rapist and deserve grave more than they do? We don't. And once one becomes "saved" they would exhibit true repentance and will no longer engage in living a life encumbered by sin. 

There is no free will to choose whether or not we want this '"grace," as it is a "gift" believers were PREDESTINED to receive, i.e., this "gift" is NOT of themselves and they have nothing to do with it.

Without Jesus, your will is not free. According to Biblical philosophy, we are all slaves to sin by default. The gift isn't just freedom from the eternal wrath for our sins which we deserve but freedom from sin itself. Not sinless, but no longer to addicted to sinning.

Yahewh determines who believes in Jesus and those who do not believe in Jesus. Therefore, those that were NOT predestined to receive the "gift" of grace, i.e. salvation, were PREDESTINED to be damned, and they too have nothing to do with it. It is all done according to Yahweh's "pleasure and will." (Eph 1:9)

"For HE CHOSE us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5HE PREDESTINED us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And hed made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ." Ephesians 1:4-10

The passages does not discuss what those who go to hell or why people go to hell. This passage is about those elected for salvation. If you want to discuss original sin and why we are born indicted and deserving of hell, read Romans 5.

Now, we also find contradictory passages in the Bible to the above deterministic passages such as the one below,
At the commencement of his ministry, Jesus himself commanded, “repent, and believe the gospel.” Mk. 1:15.
which illustrates again, the contradictory nature of the Bible.

No contradiction. A person who is predestined for salvation will repent, and believe the gospel and never reject it. THAT IS HOW WE KNOW THEY ARE ELECT!!!! Jesus also said:

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” - John 8:24

Who did Jesus say who he is?


This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Matthew 26:28



That is what Paul's letters say. 

Furthermore, it is the existence of these types of contradictory passages which has led to the development of the various denominations of Christianity--some that believe in determinism (e.g., the Calviniss) and some that believe in "free will" (e.g., Catholics). When a text does not have consistency and is contradictory you can conclude anything from it.

That isn't the case here. I\ realize that it's true that there are varying opinions, but that does not mean the problem is with the Bible. The problem is us.

 Meaning of course, that Christians themselves cannot even agree amongst themselves as to the "true" meaning of the text, and Yahweh, the so-called "all-knowing, all-good, and all-powerful" god, did not do a very good job of "revealing" the text to his followers--which means of course, he "knowingly" caused the confusion, which has resulted in multiple conflicts and millions of deaths. But I digress......


That is why you need to know Jesus for yourself. Blindly believing another person (every bit as much a sinner as you) leads to nothing but confusion and disappointment. Trust God first and he will lead you to ministries you can trust as you study on your own.

In the video, C. Michael Patton and Tim Kimberley explain that the salvation of Christians is not based on anything they do. It is based on "faith" alone, so that no one can "boast." (Eph. 2:8-10) This means that Christians, as long as they believe in Jesus, and repent for their sins, can continue to rape, murder, and commit other crimes without any fear that they could lose their salvation. Note, that some Christians do not believe you even need to "repent" in order to be saved--all they have to do is believe. Furthermore, there is no justice for the victims of Christian "sin" in the Christian system. i.e.--There is no justice at at all.

Again this is not what the Bible is saying. The passages she quotes have nothing to do with this point. she is raising.  God's forgiveness of sin doesn't obligate you or allows you to continue sinning and to do worse. 


What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin  because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. - Romans 6:1-14


No Justice? God is more than capable of avenging the innocent. People who victimize others not only sin against their victim but sin against God himself.  Unrepentant reprobates go to Hell. Don't be one of them. 

Their analogy in this case, illustrates just how disingenuous Christianity is at its core. In the video, they describe how, when believers are presented before Yahweh, their own resumes could never measure up, so instead, they must submit the resume that belongs to Jesus in order to be "saved"! In other words, they must lie about their true identity, and present someone else's resume to "the boss." If anyone in THIS life did such a thing, that is, present a resume to a prospective employer that belonged to someone else, well, that person would not only be liar, they would also be breaking the law!

Not if the employer (God in this case) decided to accept the resume of his son instead of mine and treat me accordingly. It's not against the law if that is how the employer has decided to run his business. There in no deception because Christ knows he is carrying us and the Father and the Holy Spirit knows we are being judged on Jesus' flawless record instead of our flawed ones. God is the one who set it up.  If you don't like it that's fine, but ultimately that doesn't matter. Lots of luck with using your own resume. Mine is horrible. 

 The fact that Christian salvation is based on someone else paying for the crime of another is disingenuous enough, but that Christians see no problem in creating an analogy where a person must lie about who they are and present a resume to Yahweh that does not belong to them--well, that certainly does illustrate that these Christians who feel this analogy is appropriate cannot see the forest for the trees. That is, they cannot see that their religion and their so-called salvation is based on lies and deception.

How pitiful.
________________
Cathy Cooper

How is it a lie if everyone involved knows that Jesus substituted in our place to pay for sin?  Who is being lied to? No one. Who is being deceived? The one who thinks that their righteousness measures up to God's standards of Holiness. But that isn't God telling us that our righteousness is enough. 

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away. - Isaiah 64:6


22 This righteousness is given through faith in[a] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. - Romans 3:22-24


It's not like no one told us. It's on you if you reject it. 

Debunking Christianity: Christianity-- A Disingenuous Religion Based on Lies and Deception

17 comments:

  1. That's exactly right. After we are saved, we are "perfect" and we no longer sin. Those Christians who think it is not possible to be perfect don't know what they are talking about. That Cathy Cooper takes what the Bible says, and what unlearned Christians believe, and uses it because they think it's not possible for us to be perfect--but as you quote from Romans:

    What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means!

    I am perfect. I am one of those perfect ones that you are talking about.
    Bless Jesus

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  2. Marcus has sinned a couple times on this blog. Does that mean he's not saved?

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  3. @Ryan

    Well, he says himself he has a "horrible resume." I wonder if his wife knows about it....lol. I wonder if he molests children, commits adultery or what makes his resume sooo horrible!

    Marcus also says that "EVERYONE is bound for hell unless God has predestined them for Heaven" and he also said that we must, " Trust God first and he will lead you to ministries you can trust as you study on your own."

    Since we are "predestined" before we are even born, then this too was/is determined by God. Therefore, even "trusting in god" is determined by God!!--how bogus is that!!

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  4. Romans 9, gentlemen, Romans 9. Paul was not suggesting sinless perfection see Romans 7. Reading the whole letter helps. The fact that I am no worse a sinner than either of you is something you should keep in mind. You break one of God's laws, you break them all. The question you need to ask yourself, is how is your resume? Don't worry about another's, what about your own? If God judged you just on your own merits, what do you deserve?

    If you draw near to God, He will not reject you because you can't draw near to God unless he is drawing you. Your sins are on your head.

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  5. Marcus, I've never committed adultery, I've never committed murder, I've never molested anyone, and I've never even had bad thoughts about other people. So despite what you say Marcus, my resume is clean and I would be proud to present my resume to Yahweh!!

    But even if I had done something a long time ago, like committed a sin, and then after that I never sinned again--what kind of monster are you making our god out to be? Do you think he would be the type of boss that would hold one mistake against me, even if I did good works for years and years after that? That would be monstrous! Certainly, my god is not a monster! You are not getting the scripture right.

    You're starting to make the atheists who respond to you look good now.
    Marcus, Marcus, Jesus said "be ye PERFECT, as my father in heaven is perfect" Once we are saved we are guided by God and the Holy Ghost and therefore, we choose to live a perfect life--and I do live a perfect life!!

    I used to read and like what you wrote, but now you are starting to sound like one of those backsliding Christians that make us good Christians look bad.

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  6. No, I don't think backsliding is a good thing. It's horrible and we shouldn't do it. The thing is if your Resume is perfect and you have no sin, then why did Jesus come and die?

    How do you understand Romans 7?

    21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

    So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin. - Romans 7:21-25


    Paul was talking about what he is experiencing after he received Salvation. What does this passage mean to you? If Paul struggled against sin what chance do you and I have of not having to struggle against sin.

    That is why Jesus told us to deny ourselves. It's a struggle. I'm not talking about murder. Or stealing. I'm talking about all the thing we think about and all the ways that we have yet to be more like Christ in.

    Paul said:


    12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

    13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

    14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. - Philippians 3:12-14


    Paul didn't think of himself as perfect why should you or I? John Said:

    8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us - 1 John 1:8-10

    Make no mistake. There is no excuse for sinning or backsliding. But why would you say that you don't think that God would not hold one mistake against us when we know that sin isn't just a mistake it is rebellion against God. No one is perfect. No one's resume is good enough. That is why Jesus came and died. Jesus is our propitiation. Without Jesus, standing in the filthy rags of our own righteousness, the only thing we can expect is justice and not mercy - Hell in other words. That's not bad news. That's good news. No one can boast about being perfect or having gotten peace with God on their own. This is what scripture teaches. You can't live a life even approaching goodness without God's intervention and mercy. I just thank God for intervening in my life and having mercy on me. I tell other what Jesus has done for me because I want them to have that mercy too.

    When Jesus said "be perfect" he was not talking about sinless because he knows we cannot be. He was talking about being mature - complete! Admitting my shortcomings and my total dependence on God is not backsliding it is being honest. Beggars all. That is what we all. I just thank Jesus for his mercy because he didn't have to save me but he did and does and will. He has never ever let me down.

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  7. So according to you Marcus, Jesus isn't telling us not to sin because he knows we can't help but to sin. So Jesus isn't telling us not to rape, commit adultery and molest children and so forth, because he knows we can't stop doing it because his father is forcing us to do it since he determined that in the first place from the beginning. So now the Christian excuse for continuing to sin is because we cannot NOT sin!

    So when Jesus said "Be ye as perfect as your father in heaven is perfect"--which is an identity claim, meaning that if A is B, then they would have the same properties. So you are saying that God is NOT perfect--just complete. Ahhh..... Not to mention, Hebrews 10:26-27 states you are to sin NO MORE, and if you do, there is no repentance, and you go to the pit of fire. Furthermore, Paul said once you have the "spirit" your sinful nature is CRUCIFIED, i.e. DEAD, now, guided by the Holy Spirit, you sin no more!! This is what it means when Paul said your "sinful nature" is "crucified"

    "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other." Galatians 5: 22-26

    So Jesus would know this, and know that it IS possible for us to be sinless i.e. CRUCIFY our sinful nature" however, Christians like you prefer to continue sinning and Jesus as your scapegoat/excuse for your bad behavior--shame on you Marcus. Jesus would not be pleased.

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  8. So according to you Marcus, Jesus isn't telling us not to sin because he knows we can't help but to sin. So Jesus isn't telling us not to rape, commit adultery and molest children and so forth, because he knows we can't stop doing it because his father is forcing us to do it since he determined that in the first place from the beginning. So now the Christian excuse for continuing to sin is because we cannot NOT sin!


    No. I didn't say it's okay to sin. No way is it okay. Recognizing that you still are not sinless does not mean that you don't work on not sinning. We are told to Crucify our sinful nature - it's a continual thing, something we do every day. You can't stop doing it.

    What does "perfect" mean in the context of what Jesus said? I wrote more about it in this post.

    You are to stop sinning and I do crucify my sin nature daily but no one can tell me that they don't from time time-to-time hear from God about some area in their life they need to change. For example: Do you go to church every Sunday? Do you listen to and support your Pastor? How fast are you at forgiving those who trespass against you? It's real easy to find yourself out of the will of God and needing to
    re-adjust. I'm not excusing my sins. I'm depending on the Holy Spirit


    4 In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. - Philippians 1:4-6

    What work is Paul referring to? Sanctification. Re-Read Romans 8. It is the process of God making you sinless. I think you may be confusing "Justification" with "Sanctification". Sanctification is not a one-time thing. It is a process.

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  9. @Marcus

    Nope, it's not a "process" the passages say NOTHING about a "process" Hebrews 10:26-27 makes it CLEAR that once you are saved you are to SIN NO MORE--or you go to the pit of fire.

    What you keep repeating over and over is somebody's desire to do what they have been trained to do--which is sin!! And then think that well, there is no fun without sin--but this is just a Christian myth.

    This version--that is YOUR version--is CORRUPT. It's not hard to be perfect Marcus--it's a CHOICE. What's so hard about not committing adultery, murdering, or molesting children??

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  10. This version--that is YOUR version--is CORRUPT. It's not hard to be perfect Marcus--it's a CHOICE. What's so hard about not committing adultery, murdering, or molesting children??

    Of course its easy for the average person to not commit adultery, murder, or molest children. I've never done any of these things either. Do you really think that this is all you need to not do to be sinless? It's way more than that. Are you suggesting that as long as adultery, murder, and child molester is not on your record you are clean? What did God save you from if you have never done these things? What sins of yours did get nailed on the cross with Jesus? Do you really think that you or anyone is any better than the adulterer, murderer, or child molester? To God we are all sinners. When you were born-again, what changed in you?!

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  11. Marcus, how sad! Why would I be a sinner to God when I have not committed any sins. I do not, nor have I ever had any dirty sexual thoughts. It is not the case that God made you a dirty sinner. You can choose to be sinless. Of course I am better than a adulterer, murderer, or child molester! Again, Hebrews 10:26-27 makes it CLEAR that once you are saved you are to SIN NO MORE--or you go to the pit of fire. Marcus, if you are a Christian and you have been saved, then it is easy to be sinless because your sin nature has been crucified and now you are led by the holy ghost--it is not a process--you are to sin no more! You need to get saved and stop faking and making excuses for being a sinner. Stop blaming God for for your own lack of faith and weakness! God is not forcing you to sin. God is not forcing you to have dirty bad thoughts, or what ever else you consider a sin unless you want to just make out that everything we do is a sin so you can keep sinning and claim you have too because Jesus needs you to--what a sad and monstrous conception you have of God and Jesus!!

    Marcus take responsibility for your own sins and quit blaming God. Do you think that you can keep sinning because you sinned in the past and for God and Jesus that is ok because you were not perfect in the past--NO--that is not an excuse not to be perfect now, and by perfect I mean sinless. For example, lets say you start a new job and at first you make many mistakes. Do you think an employer will think that it is a good excuse for you to keep making the same mistakes years later because, after all you, were not perfect in the beginning--NO! It would not be acceptable and it is not acceptable to God or Jesus for you to keep sinning. Oh yea, I forgot, according to you, "To God we are all sinners."--and, Jesus needs you to keep sinning and you don't won't to let God and Jesus down--right Marcus!

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  12. @ Marcus, I meant to say:

    Oh yea, I forgot, according to you, "To God we are all sinners."--and, Jesus needs you to keep sinning and you don't WANT to let God and Jesus down--right Marcus!

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  13. @ Marcus--Yeah Marcus, it's me, and so are all of the "anonymous" comments above me. And thank you for illustrating my point. I will be posting this discussion on my blog post, A is for Atheist and Debunking Christianity to illustrate the absurdity of your way of thinking.

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  14. The Christian philosopher Pelagius would be rolling over in his grave reading your post and comments, as he believed your way of thinking leads to "moral laxity." I bet you probably don't even know who Pelagius was though....

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  15. @ Marcus--Yeah Marcus, it's me, and so are all of the "anonymous" comments above me. And thank you for illustrating my point. I will be posting this discussion on my blog post, A is for Atheist and Debunking Christianity to illustrate the absurdity of your way of thinking.

    Thanks for illustrating how correct the Bible is. I hope you do post this discussion on your own blog and I hope you will post all of it, unlike your "discussion" with JW Wartick because your arguments are not any better here than with him. Feel free to show how week your position really is.

    I'll be writing my own post just about this discussion. It's been very illustrative

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  16. Hey Marcus, one last point based on the Bible. According to the Bible, if you believe in Jesus, then you can do anything, but according to you, you can not even stop sinning. You have been brainwashed with the version of Christianity that the Christian philosopher Pelagius pointed out leads to moral laxity.

    My main point is a simple one--stop making excuses for sinning and stop sinning! Take responsibility for your own sins.

    I always post all of it and/or provide a link to the material. So that red herring just does not fly.

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  17. Hey Marcus, one last point based on the Bible. According to the Bible, if you believe in Jesus, then you can do anything, but according to you, you can not even stop sinning. You have been brainwashed with the version of Christianity that the Christian philosopher Pelagius pointed out leads to moral laxity.

    1. Pelagius was not a Christian.
    2. You can't stop sinning either and no hope of really knowing what sin is. No Adultery. No Murder. Easy not to do. Low lying fruit. The bare minimum. What about not hiding your identity with the intent to deceive. Is that really harder not to do than Murder? Could that propensity of yours to sin lead some apologists to not want to talk to you anymore but block you? Could be. I won't though, you are too easy to refute.

    My main point is a simple one--stop making excuses for sinning and stop sinning! Take responsibility for your own sins.

    Who's making excuses for sinning? Recognizing my own fallen nature is not condoning or making excuses for it. You said you didn't have any sins. Another lie on top of a lie. I don't blame you however.

    19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble. - Proverbs 4:19

    Repenting for your sins and trusting God in obedience is taking responsibility for your sins. Something you haven't done.

    I always post all of it and/or provide a link to the material. So that red herring just does not fly.

    The red herrings are all yours. I don't think you did a great job of posting or representing JW Wartick on http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2012/06/case-against-christianity-in-15-minutes.html

    My fuller response to all of this is at http://mmcelhaney.blogspot.com/2012/06/faceplant-of-day-cathy-cooper.html

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