tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1767816867480783958.post4967513980233387364..comments2024-02-29T23:54:20.606-08:00Comments on What had happen' was.....: FacePlant of the Day - Debunking Christianity: Why James Holmes' Rampage is the Result of the Teachings of Christianitymmcelhaneyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07567242628894011776noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1767816867480783958.post-59758150729836264022012-07-22T22:04:11.893-07:002012-07-22T22:04:11.893-07:00Uh Jack, you claim to understand and correctly des...Uh Jack, you claim to understand and correctly describe Calvinism then you go on a tirade demonstrating that you do not understand the reformed position at all. <br /><br /><b>Now you say "To be a Christian, you have to put your faith in Christ and obey him." Yet this is precisely what you Calvinists teach against; you say that its all about predestination and faith and works don't matter, </b><br /><br />Please point to a single Calvinist who teaches that? The correct Biblical position is not that good works save yous but faith.You are saved in order to do the God works God predestined you to do. - Ephesians 2:8-10<br /><br /><b>we've fallen from grace or we never believed to begin with or are not elect.</b><br /><br />Who are you talking to? We don't know who the elect are!<br /><br /><b>You deserve to be blamed for Holme's rampage, because your moronic belief system that its impossible to obey Jesus and you shouldn't try because original sin prevents you blah blah blah probably did lead to it. And even if it didn't, you all deserve to burn eternally in hell for destroying Christianity and making it about excuses to sin rather than following Jesus and living right. Amen.</b><br /><br />Are you serious? I mean...really? I don't know a single Christian who doesn't believe that we ought to obey Jesus or that sin can't be overcome....although it's a struggle. Jesus gives us victory over sin. Where is yours?<br /><br /><b>Well, there are none. You're talking about that Psalm that says "the wicked go astray from the womb speaking lies" of course, but its just poetic exaggeration--its a PSALM, duh--go look at the similar passage in Job (also poetry) where Job says "I took care of the fatherless and widows from my mother's womb." Neither of those is literal, but you Calvinists insist on taking the one from the Psalm literal and ignoring the one from Job. I take both into account, and understand the point is to exaggerate how long the wicked have been wicked (i.e. in the Psalm) and to exaggerate how long the righteous have been righteous (i.e. in Job).</b> <br /><br />So God can't convey truth through poetry? And if you think Psalms is the only place that tells us of our guilt of sin from the start, I fear you need to go and read some more.<br /><br />Job was declared righteous. Not Sinless. Remember "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness" - Genesis 15:6. And we know Abraham lied twice about Sarah being his wife. He wasn't sinless, but he did good works and fulfilled the purposes God had for him. That's hope for us. Not that we can go on sinning but that we can be cleansed from our sin. <br /><br />And I'd be interested in how you would explain these:<br /><br />Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; and Genesis 8:21; Psalm 51:5<br /><br />I think you need to rethink your exegesis.mmcelhaneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07567242628894011776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1767816867480783958.post-46399041505059593082012-07-22T13:07:49.118-07:002012-07-22T13:07:49.118-07:00"With all due love and with respect I am not ...<i>"With all due love and with respect I am not convinced that you have represented reformed tradition or teachings."</i><br /><br />Calvinists have this thing where no matter how you represent their teachings, you never get it right. Kinda of like the CIA and plausible deniability. I get it. Don't ever admit anyone knows what you beleive and they won't be able to hold you to it. But you and I both know its just a dishonest trick on your part.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Well, there are none. You're talking about that Psalm that says "the wicked go astray from the womb speaking lies" of course, but its just poetic exaggeration--its a PSALM, duh--go look at the similar passage in Job (also poetry) where Job says "I took care of the fatherless and widows from my mother's womb." Neither of those is literal, but you Calvinists insist on taking the one from the Psalm literal and ignoring the one from Job. I take both into account, and understand the point is to exaggerate how long the wicked have been wicked (i.e. in the Psalm) and to exaggerate how long the righteous have been righteous (i.e. in Job). <br /><br />Now, if we took them both literally, then we'd have the wicked being wicked from the womb and the righteous being righteous from the womb. We would not have what you Calvinists teach, i.e. everyone being wicked from the womb. So your theology is an epic fail.<br /><br />What it boils down to in the end is you don't give a crap what the Old Testament or the Synoptic Gospels say. You don't care what Jesus' own message is. You only care about medieval scholasticism, Augustine, and you only believe the worst gaffs in the Pauline epistles (or in other words, the places where Paul didn't speak so clearly and is easily misunderstood as teaching your position which certainly an apostle would not and could not teach) not the truth as Jesus taught it.<br /><br />Now you say "To be a Christian, you have to put your faith in Christ and obey him." Yet this is precisely what you Calvinists teach against; you say that its all about predestination and faith and works don't matter, and if we obey Jesus you accuse us of "trusting in works" and say we've fallen from grace or we never believed to begin with or are not elect. You deserve to be blamed for Holme's rampage, because your moronic belief system that its impossible to obey Jesus and you shouldn't try because original sin prevents you blah blah blah probably did lead to it. And even if it didn't, you all deserve to burn eternally in hell for destroying Christianity and making it about excuses to sin rather than following Jesus and living right. Amen.<br /><br />--jackAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1767816867480783958.post-76784818193455523862012-07-21T18:24:42.694-07:002012-07-21T18:24:42.694-07:00Hey, Jack, thanks for commenting. With all due lov...Hey, Jack, thanks for commenting. With all due love and with respect I am not convinced that you have represented reformed tradition or teachings.<br /><br />Fatalism is not a part of being reformed. There is not a single verse in the Bible that tells us we have free will. If Godisn't in control of all things who is? I never said that we continue to be enslaved to sin once Jesus frees us. My comments about being enslaved to sin are with regards to prior before being born again. <br /><br />You said:<br /><br /><b>The idea is not that we are born enslaved to sin but that so long as we persist in sin we are slaves to sin. When we repent, we turn from being a slave to sin and become a slave to God.<br /></b><br /><br />How do you ignore all the scriptures that explain how we sinners from the beginning? I would never suggest that God intends for us to stay that way. <br /><br /><br /><br /><b> Does that sound like the depressing pessimism of Romans 3 or Romans 7? NO!!!!!</b><br /><br />No sounds like the misrepresentation of scriptue Romans 3 and 7 points out that we cannot be right or righteous with out Jesus. And Given John 6:44, and John 8:24 I'd say Paul agreed with Jesus. <br /><br /><b>What we find then is that Christians who focus on Jesus' message will try harder to avoid sin. They will be less sexually immoral -- they will never ever ever commit murder.</b><br /><br />What scripture is that?<br /><br /><b>I'll side then with those who follow Jesus' message. The Pauline Christians are no better than atheists! Their views simply leads to more and more sin.</b><br /><br />Paul only said what Jesus said. He didn't make up anything new. And 2/3 of the New Testament was written through Paul.Would you really be so quick to ignore what God has given us?<br /><br />I don't think one has to believe in the 5 points or agree with me about free will in order to be A Christian. To be a Christian, you have to put your faith in Christ and obey him. You believe that Jesus died for you in your place and rose again. You are saved because of his Love and gracemmcelhaneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07567242628894011776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1767816867480783958.post-21295499319163425392012-07-21T16:41:03.859-07:002012-07-21T16:41:03.859-07:00Actually I didn't take the KJV and paraphrase ...Actually I didn't take the KJV and paraphrase it into modern English--I did that at first, but then I replaced my paraphrase with the ESV (English Standard Version)--and I forgot to remove that sentence "I took the KJV and parahprased a bit to update it to modern English." The ESV and KJV say the same thing; just the ESV is easier to read. My quotation of John 8:34 is also from the ESV.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1767816867480783958.post-57780961872855638142012-07-21T16:38:50.437-07:002012-07-21T16:38:50.437-07:00"We do have will of our own but it is enslave...<i>"We do have will of our own but it is enslaved to sin"</i><br /><br />How does such foolishness as this fit with Jesus' saying in Matthew 12:35 above? It doesn't.<br /><br />In fact, even Paul says in Romans 6:16 (ESV) "Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?"<br /><br />That is, in other words, you are only a slave to sin if you yield yourself to sin as a slave; but you have another choice, to yield yourself to obedience to God as a slave. If you're a KJV-onlyist or whatever, go read it in the KJV. I took the KJV and parahprased a bit to update it to modern English.<br /><br />Jesus means the same thing John 8:34 "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin."<br /><br />That word "practices" in the ESV or <br />"commiteth" in the KJV indicates persistence. <br /><br />In other words, it ought to be understood as : "Whoever persists in sin is the slave of sin." <br /><br />The idea is not that we are born enslaved to sin but that so long as we persist in sin we are slaves to sin. When we repent, we turn from being a slave to sin and become a slave to God.<br /><br />What you believe in is NOT the message of Jesus but of medieval scholasticism!<br /><br />--jackAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1767816867480783958.post-36317637145027264322012-07-21T16:23:57.576-07:002012-07-21T16:23:57.576-07:00Original sin or the "born that way excuse&quo...Original sin or the "born that way excuse" tends to make people not even try to avoid sin. Normally that means not even trying to avoid sexual immorality. It means having sex out of wedlock and then saying "Oh, I'm a sinner; I can't do any better." But occasionally someone takes it further. If Christianity preached "you can do better" -- if it focused on the power we have to live right -- as Jesus did by the way, for he called people to repentance -- Jesus' message is NOT that we can't do it -- that's all Paul. <br /><br />Jesus says "A GOOD MAN out of the GOOD treasure of his heart brings forth GOOD things. An EVIL MAN out of the EVIL treasure of his heart brings forth EVIL things." Matthew 12:35<br /><br />Now, does that sound like the original sin "oh, its not possible to live right" theory of Protestantism? Does that sound like the depressing pessimism of Romans 3 or Romans 7? NO!!!!!<br /><br />What we find then is that Christians who focus on Jesus' message will try harder to avoid sin. They will be less sexually immoral -- they will never ever ever commit murder.<br /><br />But Christians who focus on Paul's depressing message will commit lots of sexual immorality and may even commit murder.<br /><br />I'll side then with those who follow Jesus' message. The Pauline Christians are no better than atheists! Their views simply leads to more and more sin.<br /><br />--jackAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1767816867480783958.post-52378160916992744962012-07-21T16:16:36.598-07:002012-07-21T16:16:36.598-07:00Calvinism drives people insane. Trying to harmoni...Calvinism drives people insane. Trying to harmonize the obvious perception of reality [that we have free-will] with the silly fatalist claims of Calvinist can make you batty. Most people don't go buy body armor and massacre people in a theater because of it, of course, but everyone locked in that system goes a little nuts. And to make it worse, Calvinists also assert that everything that happens [even the worst of evils] was God's will. There will be Calvinist preachers saying in tomorrow's sermon that it was God's will for Holmes to sin by killing all those folks. This kind of preaching is more likely than any other to make people not only crazy but crazy evil. Yet, again, most people don't go as far as Holmes. Yet, in any case, it would be better to deny fatalism and predestination and to not teach that everything that happens was willed by God because those absurdities are absurd. Normal people who are Calvinists don't go as far as Holmes precisely because they only give those things a sort of nominal assent required by the church; they confess them only to stay on the Presbyterian church's good side, but internally they don't fully believe them. In order to fully believe in fatalism you have to be fully insane or become fully insane; and Holmes may be a case of a person who did EXACTLY that.<br /><br />--jackAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com