Brennon's Thoughts: Romans 5:6: Who are the Ungodly?

On his blog Brennon, offers an exegesis on Romans 5:6. He understand it to be saying that Jesus died for every single human being because we are all ungodly. I agree that we are all ungodly. Let's look at the passage in a broader context verses 1-11

¹Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, ²through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. ³Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; ⁴perseverance, character; and character, hope. ⁵And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
 ⁶You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. ⁷Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. ⁸But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
 ⁹Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! ¹⁰For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! ¹¹Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Okay, now let's look at Brennon's argument, with my responses in red.

A single verse I think speaks volumes about the extent of Christ's atonement is Romans 5:6. Paul writes, "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly" (NASB).Paul tells us here explicitly who Christ died for; the ungodly. Now, many Calvinists claim that Jesus only died for a select few on the cross. He only paid for the sins of the elect. But if this is the case, then Romans 5:6 would indicate that the non-elect aren't ungodly, since Christ died for the ungodly. Or it means, as the Arminian insists, that Christ really did die for the ungodly; namely all those who are at odds with God because of their sin, who Paul identifies as every individual on earth (Romans 3:23).

We are in complete agreement that every human being is ungodly.

The only other alternative I could see the Calvinist presenting here is that Paul only means the ungodly among the elect, since Paul says "while we were still helpless." However, this is a tortured reading of this text and in no way follows. "We" clearly means humanity as a whole, but even if it means the specific people Paul is talking to, it doesn't alter the fact that he writes that "Christ died for the ungodly." So if we are to take "we" to mean the elect, it could still read "while [the elect] were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly." The article "the" modifies the noun "ungodly" in a way that it causes it to mean ungodly people in general. There really is no other way to read this verse: Christ died for every individual since every individual is ungodly.

In light of the verses preceeding verse 6, I don't think we can say that because Jesus died for the ungodly, he died for every single human being.  In context, Paul limits for whom the sacrifice is made although all need justification and sanctification. Paul is talking directly to the church - those who believe and reminding us that Jesus died for us although we don not deserve it. Look at verses 1 and 2.

¹Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, ²through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

The reason why we are "justified through faith" and have peace and the hope of the glory of God"  is because Jesus died for us. We are ungodly but not all of the ungodly are saved. Putting aside the question of why some ungodly are not saved  and some are saved for now and just ask isn't the ungodly who are saved in verse 6 the same as those who are "justified through faith" in verse 1? I would stay they are. So unless everyone is justified or Jesus did not die for every single individual or "the ungodly" in verse 6 only refers to the elect - those who believe. What about verses 9-11

⁹Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! ¹⁰For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! ¹¹Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Paul says that the same people he has been talking to since verse 1 (and before) are saved from God's wrath and receive reconciliatio. This can only be talking about those who will ultimately be saved through faith who were still the ungodly in verse 6. I think the key is that throughout the passage, Paul uses the personal plural pronouns "us" and "we". He is referring to just the body of believers throughout all of time, not ever human being. Yes, all people are sinners and ungodly, but only the elect are saved from God's wrath.

Brennon's Thoughts: Romans 5:6: Who are the Ungodly?

Google Engineers Argue Over Superpowers - ComicsAlliance.com

The Comics Alliance blog has posted an article about engineers at Google seriously discussing which Superpower is the best:

1. Invisibility
2. Flight
3. Teleportation

Apparently, this is something that the Google engineers have been trying to hash out amongst themselves, and like any good nerds, they have taken a silly, theoretical question and analyzed it in quantifiable, serious, empirical ways.
A traditionally short conversation ("Would you rather have the power of invisibility or the power of flight?") rapidly spins off new and philosophical threads enumerating hidden caveats and analyzing cost-benefit scenarios. Under the black-markered "The power to move you," someone uses a blue marker to replace "you" with "anyone." "What do you mean by move?" asks a red marker. "You made this no fun anymore," complains a blue marker, underscoring that point with a frowning face.

Does this surprise me? No, when I was doing engineering at Berkeley I found myself drawn into such conversations. I mean a lot of my peers in Engineering loved science fiction, horror, and comics as much I do. I found that it was the inspiration for getting into science/engineering. One friend told me, "I want to build 'Robocop'!" I wholeheartedly concur - now and then. It doesn't surprise me that Google would have engineers friendly discussing such things. I often still wish I was still in an environment like that sometimes (No, I don't want to go back to University).



Google Engineers Argue Over Superpowers

TOL Topic of the Day - Chime In! - Theology Forum | Theology Online

I have heard about an interesting Internet Forum. It seems every day a question or topic is posted and members discuss it. Go ahead and check it out.

TOL Topic of the Day - Chime In! - Theology Forum | Theology Online