Monday, September 15, 2008

Bible Basics - Trinity - Part 2a Bible Foundations


So how do we go about showing that the Trinity doctrine comes from Scripture? Well, I wish I could say that this method was revealed to me from high, but I heard this line of reasoning from Dr. Walter Martin when he was addressing how to witness to Jehovah Witnesses when they deny the Trinity. I find that his presentation should work for any discussion of the subject.

Dr. Martin started with premise that if you can prove that the Bible teaches all of the following:
There are 3 persons identified in scripture -
Father is called "GOD";
the Son is called "GOD";
the Holy Spirit is called "GOD";
and there is only one God;

Then you have to accept the doctrine of the Trinity in order to be consistent with the Bible.
Then each person of the Trinity must Equal and are God. Logically, things equal to the same thing are equal to each other.
Therefore if the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God, then they must be equal to one another.

Let us take on further discussion step by step. All Christians agree that God is personal and the Father is God. 2 Peter 1:17 clearly states that the Father is called God.

For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
I'll leave this point because I think that very few people will argue with it. To show the concept that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God will require much more Biblical Proof.

Jesus applied the Divine name to himself. I realize that there are people who deny this. If you do not accept that Jesus is God, please consider the implications of if He really did teach that he is God. If any man makes such a claim, there are only 4 possible conclusions that you draw. Either He was:
a. deceived;
b. insane;
c. wrong;
or d. telling the truth.

Let's look at the scriptures to talk about what Jesus said about himself and what the scriptures say about Him. A favorite texts where Jesus emphatically claims the divine name is found in John 8:58,59 which says:

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
Without looking at the cultural context of the people who heard Jesus say this it is impossible to understand why they reacted so violently. They wanted to kill Him! Why? They understood what He was saying and it's lost on us in English. However Greek helps a lot. We have to go back to what God said to Moses back in Exodus 3:13,14:

Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
The Greek Translation of the Old Testaments, the Septuagint - completed over a century before Jesus' birth through Mary, translated the Hebrew word for "I AM", YWH (Yaweh or Jehovah) with the same word Jesus used in John 8:58: Eimi. The Jews who wanted to kill Jesus understood that Jesus was asserting his eternality and calling himself the same name as the God who brought them up out of Egypt under Moses. His meaning was not lost upon them. Why should we set it aside today?

Let's go to John 10: 24-39. The Passage is as follows:
The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."

Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all] no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Here we again have an example of Jesus saying something that no other human being can say. And again the Jews undrerstood the weight of the words. They understood Jesus claimed to ber God because He claimed to be one with Father. I've heard some folks try to use verses 34, 35, and 36 to say that Jesus denied being equal with God but instead only claimed to be God's Son. This explanation pre-supposes that God's Son has a fundamentally different essence than God himself and I think that we can't say that. The scripture won't hold.

Let's examine some more scriptures. Revelations 1:8 says:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

We can definitely say that God is exactly what verse 8 says. It is God the Father talking. Most People will agree that Revelation 1:17 18 is Jesus talking. Red letter Bible have his words in Red.

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
We have Jesus calling himself "First and Last". Sounds like God to me. Look at Revelations 22: 12, 13 which says:

"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
Jesus refers to himself in the same way God does in Revelation 1. So either we have a contradiction or Jesus is God. and the Holy Spirit is God.

Let's throw in some Old Testament texts from Isaiah. Isaiah 44:6 says

This is what the LORD says—
"Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God."
Whis is echoed in Revelation. This shows that God the Father and God the Son are sharing the same name.

Recall that in Isaiah 9: 6-7, Jesus is prophesied to being called "Everlasting Father".and "Mighty God".

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

If all these names apply to Jesus, then no other conclusion can be drawn other than Jesus is just as much God as the Father.

Wow....I just get on a roll and keep typing. I need to break this post up too. So that it won't be too long. In Part 2b I will continue going over scripture.

6 comments:

  1. The trinitarian cannot show that the doctrine of the trinity comes from scripture. What the trinitarian actually does is assume the doctrine, then add that doctrine to, and read that doctrine into the scriptures.

    The Hebrew words for "god" -- all based on the word EL, are applied to many other persons and even things in the Bible. The KJV translators recognizes this and so rendered these words as "mighty," "power," etc: Genesis 31:29; Deuteronomy 28:32; Nehemiah 5:5; Psalm 36:6; Proverbs 3:27; Psalm 89:6; 82:1; Exodus 15:11; Psalm 29:1; 50:1; Ezekiel 32:21; Genesis 23:6; 30:8; 1 Samuel 14:15; Jonah 3:3. Jesus followed this customed by using s form of the Greek word theos to others than Yahweh. (John 10:34,35) If the thought that the word for "god" is applied to Jesus means that Jesus is a person of his God, then taking the application to angels (Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7), we actually we have millions, perhaps billions of persons in the only true God. Of course, in reality, when these words are applied to others who are not the only true God, including the Son of God who was sent by the only true God, these words take on the general meaning of might, strength, power, etc. The Word of God was mighty with the only true God before the world that did not recognize him was made. -- John 1:1,2,10; 17:1,3,5.

    The Alha and Omega of Revelation 1:8 and elsewhere in the book of Revelation refers to the God and Father of Jesus, that is, Yahweh.

    If "first and last," as applied to Jesus, means that Jesus is the eternal God who did not die, then the eternal God who did not die, was dead, and came to be in condition where he is alive forever and ever.

    Yes, the God and Father of Jesus in Revelation 22:12,13 is depicted as coming; Yawheh comes to judge by means of the one whom he has appointed, that is, Jesus. (Psalm 96, 98; Acts 17:31) Yahweh's coming to judge the world by means of Jesus does not mean that Jesus is his God, the only true God who sent Jesus. -- John 17:3.

    http://notrinity.blogspot.com/

    Christian love,
    Ronald

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  2. Hello, Ronald. Thanks for reading my blog and raising your viewpoint. Did you read all of the articles? One point that I would love to hear your response to is the difference between "person" and "being". Do you see the difference or do see them as the same?

    As for the scriptures you have brought up, I'd like to respond to your points. There is no warrant to assume that we can apply the divine name of God to anyone - men or angels - other than Christ. Can you point out one example where the divine name is applied to an angel or a man other than Christ? I have 2 or three examples of the divine name or titles, that can't be applied to anyone else other than God applied to Jesus Christ. How do you understand this point?

    John 1:2 say the Word - the LOGOS - is God. What does that mean to you? The passages you cited with John 1:1 point to Jesus' pre-existence and his eternality.

    I very much disagree with you comments about Revelation. How do you get the Father talking in Rev 1:17, 18? John said oine like the son of Man spoke to him...and we know that no man has see the Father at any time, so it had to be Jesus.

    Do you disagree that in Revelations 22: 12, 13 it is Jesus talking?

    I appreciate your comments and I hope that you will see fit to answer my questions. May God Bless you and when He has redeems us comes, let Him find all of us ready.

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  3. I need to add something to my comments that I forgot to state: The short form of the holy name as it appears in the Septuagint is HO ON, not EGO EIMI. If Jesus had been saying that his name was EHYEH of Exodus 3:15, then he would said that he is HO ON, meaning "The Being," not EGO EIMI.

    The long form in the Septuagint is EGO EIMI HO ON, which is a sentence with a object, stating, in effect, "I am the being." While I do not agree with the Septuagint's rendering, if Jesus was quoting from the Septuagint, then Jesus quoted a sentence that would demand an object. In other words EGO EIMI would have been a quote of a sentence that contains an object.

    In reality, Jesus was using the Greek present tense in a past tense context to denote that had been existing before Abraham existed. Jesus was not claiming that his name was the holy name of his God who had sent him in John 8:58, or anywhere else in the Bible. Jesus claimed to have come in the name of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He never claimed that his name was EHYEH/YAHWEH, the name of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who had sent him.

    Christian love,
    Ronald

    ReplyDelete
  4. I understand the difference that trinitarians place on person and being. I do not agree with that understanding. A sentient being is one person, not more than one person. One Omniscient Being is one person. Even most trinitarians will state that all three of the alleged persons of their trinity do not share the same sentiency, and yet, often unwittingly, they will also claim that all of these "persons" do share the same sentiency by the claim that they are all three omniscient.

    The holy name, often rendered into English as Yahweh or Jehovah, of the God and Father of Jesus is never applied to anyone else that the God and Father of Jesus. It is never applied to Jesus, nor does Jesus ever apply this holy name of his God and Father to himself.

    The Logos was mighty. (John 1:1)This denote the might and glory and Jesus had a celestial being before became a fleshly being. Jesus did not have his former glory as a celestial being while he was fleshly being. -- John 17:5; 1 Corinthians 15:40,45.
    http://notrinity.blogspot.com/2008/08/john-112-word-was-mighty.html

    While Jesus did pre-exist his humanity, there is nothing in John 1:1,2 that means that Jesus never had a beginning, if this is the thought behind the use of the word "eternality." Jesus did not become "eternal," having life from his God that will never die, until after he was raised from the dead. -- Romans 6:9; 2 Corinthians 13;4; Hebrews 7:25; Revelation 1:18.

    I never said that it was the God and Father of Jesus that was speaking in Revelation 1:17,18. It was indeed Jesus, who as the first and last to be raised from the dead directly by his God and Father, was indeed dead, and was indeed raised to everlasting life, never to die again. Everyone else to be raised in the last day, whether raised in the resurrection of life, or judgment (John 5:28,29), will be raised directly by Jesus (John 5:25; 6:39,40,44,54; 12:46,47), not directly by the Father, although it is still true that the God of Jesus raises the dead through, by means of, his Son, just as he will come to judge the world by means of his Son. The fact that all power is given to Jesus proves that Jesus is not the Supreme Being. -- Psalm 96, 98; Acts 17:31; Matthew 28:18; John 3:35; 5:22-27; 13:3; Acts 2:36; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 15:27; Ephesians 1:20-22; Philippians 2:9-11; Hebrews 1:2; 1 Peter 3:22.
    See:
    http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=193.0

    Regarding Alpha and Omega in Revelation 22:13, see:
    http://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/ao-03/

    Christian love,
    Ronald

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  5. Hey, Ronald, thanks for making your position more clear to me. I got to admit that you seem to have spent a lot of time studying this subject. I appreciate that. So have I. I would not presume to be a fluent in Hebrew or Greek in the slightest. I haven't been able to do better than Interlinear translations of the Old and New Testaments, the Septuagint, and lexicons but my own study has lead me to different conclusions than yours. Iron Sharpens Iron and I need sharpening. Thanks!

    However I have been able to confirm that the Septuagint does indeed translate Exodus 3:14 Hebrew reading (in English)"I AM THAT [or WHO] I AM" in Greek as "ego eimi ho on". Where did you read that it was only "ho on"? My copy of the Septuagint has "ego eimi ho on". Jesus said "Ego eimi". In the Jewish traditions they would not always quote the whole sentence or passage because the people who were listening would know what was being said and would understand that the whole passage is being cited. For example when Jesus was on the cross and He "why has thou forsaken me" Jesus was quoting Psalm 22. If you read the whole Psalm then you know that God is faithful and never forsakes His chosen.

    You also said that Jesus was "denoting his existence before Abraham". I agree but what does that mean to you? You don't seem to mean it the same way I do. That says to me Jesus is divine and claims his equality with God and that is what the Jews who heard Jesus understood. That is why they wanted to stone Him. Jesus did apply the divine name to himself.

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  6. I broke up my comments because I was getting long, Ronald. I don't agree with that the Trinity doctrine says that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share sentience. I've always looked at it as each person has sentience not each being. A dog, A roach, A dolphin has being but they do not have sentience. Sentience is a property of personhood not being.

    In my posts and comments I showed how the Bible applies the divine name to Christ. Here is another example: John 13:19. Jesus used the divine name and applied it to himself. Can you explain why you disagree with the examples I cited?

    What do you mean when you called Jesus a "celestial being"? What does that mean? I disagree with the way you used Romans 6:9; 2 Corinthians 13;4; Hebrews 7:25; Revelation 1:18. They do not teach that Jesus is eternal only after his resurrection. And if you believe John 1:1-18 is saying that Jesus is the LOGOS then He is eternal and He is God.

    If Jesus is referring to Himself as the First and The Last - The Alpha And Omega - and the Father refers to himself the same way. They both can't be true. Unless they are the same being. Also If Jesus has all power given to him, then what about the Father. Does the Father stop having all power? No.

    You cited 3 websites I should read. I will create a response. Thanks so much for your time.

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