Andrew again responded to my blog so I will respond in kind. My response is in red.
No matter how things are.
// July 20th, 2009 // Blog
In Marcus’s latest reply he fails utterly. Again.
In no way does Ross say that God could not choose different constants! God chose the constants we have so that the universe would be as we find it! That is Ross’ argument. Try another straw-man argument.
This argument is pointless and silly because it simply cannot be proven false. You see, it does not matter which cosmological constants God apparently selected (although I have already shown that these values are our way of describing the universe, which simply just exist independently our mathematics) – Marcus and Dr. Ross simply claim that God selected those values with no evidence that this is actually the case. What’s more, it doesn’t even show which potential God out of the thousands throughout history choose these values.
Even if God did choose different values, exactly the same argument Dr. Ross is proposing would hold true. Even if we devised another mathematical framework which only required 3 constants the argument would hold. If we demonstrate that the values could not have been any other way due to some deeper understanding of the universe obtained through observation and experimentation – the argument would hold. You see, the argument holds in every case, which means it is valuable in none.
Care to try again, Marcus?
Andrew, trying to poke holes without offering anything viable in return are we? The fine-tuning argument is not based on 3 constants but hundreds. I can name six without even looking them up:
1. The Radius of the Earth
2. The distance of the earth from the sun
4, The size of the proton
5. The size of the electron
6. The charge of a proton.
If any of these were different, life as we know it would not be possible. Not to mention all the other numbers and quantities involved. How is that we have this? Exactly the right everything to exist and not just exist but to be able to observe the universe and see just how special it is? It has to be designed. There is no other rational explanation. Either that or your twitter portrait really is explains more than you intended.
Andrew, no where does the Bible teach a earth-centric universe. No where! Yes the catholic church in Galileo’s time taught that and persecuted scientist who opposed it. So what? That is not what the Bible says. The church acted contrary to God. No surprise there – they were people just like you and me.
How about these for a start?
“Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.” – 1 Chronicles 16:30
“He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and he hath set the world upon them.” – 1 Samuel 2:8
“Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.” – Job 9:6
“The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it.” – Psalm 75:3
Seems like the authors believed the Earth did not move. Seems reasonable as our senses do not give that impression, but it’s still totally wrong. Even if you disagree with the stable, motionless Earth interpretation these verses indicate, you must admit it is possible to interpret them in this way. When a verse can be interpreted to mean both a fixed and in motion, then it too is worthless.
Writing these passages off as poetry, allegory, or symbolic in way way vindicates your view. For centuries the official position of the world’s religions (and that of science) was a fixed, immovable, flat Earth. To say otherwise put you in mortal peril from the bishops, priests, and Kings in power. Only after careful investigation, observation, experimentation, record keeping, and deep thought did the evidence for alternate views become so overwhelming that the truth could not be suppressed any longer. The Catholic Church (the first organised Christian sect) officially recognised a heliocentric solar system 350 years after Galileo figured it out. How’s that for divine guidance?
The verses you cited are not talking about the earth being fixed. If you want to interpret it that way, fine. But who is it talking in those verses? Not God but people. The Bible is recording what people said in those circumstances not what God says about the nature of the earth. God can inspire poetry and metaphor to prove a point. The relative motion of the earth to the sun had nothing to do with those verses. Another point is that the same man who said the words you cited in Job 9:6 also said Job 26:7 which says:
7 He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;
he suspends the earth over nothing.
Sounds like Job knew that the earth really did not sit on pillars.
It’s exactly the Christian theistic argument that God created the universe to achieve a purpose(s). It’s not unknowable. It is being revealed to us. The Bible does give insight.
So you have no idea what the purpose is, if any. You simply have faith that your God has created a universe in which we are an inexplicably small part. One which, to spite its immense size, would kill us instantly if we were to materialise in some random place. One which has another galaxy hurtling on a collision course with our own. One in which our sun will explode in a massive supernova, killing all life forever. One which is expanding and cooling leading unalterably to heat death where life as we know it will be impossible – anywhere. And somehow this is designed for us? You need you head read.
I said the Bible tells us what the purpose of creation is.
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Colossians 1:15-20
The other thing is that according to Revelation Jesus will return before the universe ends in heat death or before andromeda collides with our MilkyWay. But you are making my point for me concerning Romans 8:22-25.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
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