Over the month of July, I have been in dialog with three or four people who have strong disagreements with me on the existence of God, the validity of the Bible, history, and the nature of the math and science. The past couple of days have been quiet as if my "playmates" have become tired of the discussion. My correspondents have been Askegg, naontiotami, Cynskeptical, AdamJTP, freeplay, jearle, and dsurman. Although they are all very different and ran the whole range from being civil and courteous to being insulting and childish, they're opposition all seemed to boil down to the same themes. I'm not saying that each of these guys all necessarily agree with one another, but considering that they never argued against each other is something of note. Here is the list of ideas and qualities I think they share.
1. How do you know the God of the Bible is real and all the other religions are wrong?
2. The Bible describes a God they would never worship.
3. There is no good evidence for the validity of God.
4. Asking them to prove there is no God is logically errant because you can't prove a negative.
5. There is no historical evidence for Jesus outside the Bible.
6. The universe is eternal, therefore it does not need a creator.
7. If the universe was designed by a creator, then the creator must have a designer.
8. The Bible is flawed and contradicts itself and known facts.
7. They all claimed familiarity with the Bible and what it teaches yet show a marked ignorance of what the text means and what Christians believe.
8. They refused to apply context and culture to the Bible text and instead imposed their own ideas and supposition anachronistically.
9. They claimed that Christianity borrowed/stored theological ideas can concepts from pagan/mystery religions.
10. They claimed that there are no known evidences and facts that confim the bible as being true.
11. They refused to discuss the original languages of the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic and instead wanted to focus on 400 year-old English translations which the translators themselves agreed was not perfect.
12. They were willing to call my knowledge and education into question without providing any credentials of their own to speak as an authority.
13. Refused in many cases to be corrected in things about what the Bible really does say. For example a. Zombies and b. Unicorns
14. Refused to provide any meaningful refutations of facts and information I raised or pointed them to.
15. Tried standard atheists arguments like trying to resorting to equating the evidence for God to the evidence for leprechauns as if it their existences were linked some how.
16. Ignoring the fact that intelligent and educated experts in sciences, history, and the fields of study we discussed have come to different conclusions that they have come to and should not be dismissed out right.
17. A couple of these men have blocked me from following them on twitter...so I guess that means that as far as they are concerned the discussions are over.
18. They don't see the hand of God in mathematics and the sciences.
19. They desire to come up with alternate theories to explain the obvious design of the universe
20. The use the same tired arguments as Richard Dawkins (who refuse to debate competent Theists anymore) and Christopher Hitchens (who is a good debater).
21. They accept macro evolution as the scientific explanation for the origin of the variouos lifeforms on earth.
22. They define God differently than God defines himself in the Bible.
23. They don't believe that there is one true religion that all of humanity should follow.
I haven't really decided to turn this post into a series or not. I could respond to each of these posts and even show examples of argument and statements made because I think it could be useful to anyone contemplating these matters. If I do turn this into a series of posts I will take each of the above statements and write a single post around it. I may even say some things I didn't say in my twitter stream. If any of the people I've been discussing these things in Twitter, or anyone, I hope that they will free to post their own responses if they disagree. I also hope that althought it got heated, especially from freeplay and askegg, that they know that i harbor no ill-will towards them but that God will make known to them about His love and mercy. Once you try Jesus you will never go back.
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By all means - post an entry on each of these points. Should be good for a laugh.
ReplyDeleteWell, at least you admit that I accurately chronicled your points...stupid as they are.
ReplyDeleteThanks for this opportunity. I hope you won't be censoring replies/posts you disagree with, as that kind of defeats the purpose.
ReplyDeleteAs it is, we don't need to provide alternative explanations for how the universe came to be as that's not what we're debating. We're debating your book's explanation, not any other theories.
Ask yourself this: If there is one god, why is the choice of a person's religion usually determined by the birthplace of their parents? Why do you need missionaries to travel to places that have never heard of a universal god?
Bun dem in da fiery hells of Babylon!
ReplyDeleteSodomite dem man fi dead!
So the existence of god? According to the bible?
ReplyDeleteHere's a strange weird question for you.
According to you everything in the world/universe has a creator, and therefore by that premise the universe itself has a creator, which you call god. But God doesn't have a creator as he/she/it is eternal and has been and always will be etc etc. Well by your premise God does not exist. Because if everything has a creator and nothing can exist without something having created it in the first place and because God doesn't have a creator(mum and dad if you want) then god does not exist either.
So I feel that pretty much ends the debate. God does not exist and if he did, then he's been a very naughty boy indeed!!
Actually Marcus, I did not say you accurately chronicled the points at all. I just said it would be fun to see what you had to say.
ReplyDeleteJust looking at the list of points, one jumps out:
ReplyDelete"19. They desire to come up with alternate theories to explain the obvious design of the universe"
In what way is there some "obvious design in the universe"? I certainly don't see anything 'obvious' about the claim that there is any 'design of the universe'. And that is really an important thing: You can't engage in any meaningful debate if you require your opponents to basically accept your viewpoint as an axiom! And that is probably why some people decided that there's not much point in trying to discuss things with you.
@jearle and @cbrunchen
ReplyDeleteI'm responding to you together because you are making the same point. First the point I was making that instead of showing why you don't believe the universe is designed, alternate theories are put forth to explain why the universe seems designed despite the way it is can't possibly be a coincidence. If you think it can be a coincidence then argue for that. I'm not trying to force anyone to accept that it's designed, I'm challenging you to explain why it isn't. Everything else fabricated and manufactured has a designer.
@jearle
As for your question concerning witnessing, I've got to say that I would like to do a fully explanation but a short one would be that people's religion is not fully determined by where they live an upbringing. I have heard several stories of people raised in other religions who become Christians when they have the facts. I also know of people who although they were raised Christian they reject Christ. It's individual and case-by-case. No one hears about Jesus unless we tell them. It's a gift that God wants everyone to receive and is unrecognizable apart from the Bible. It's really deeper than I can go into the comments session. The Bible tells us to go out and spread the word. People need to know what Jesus did for them, then they have a decision to make - serve God or go on their merry way to where they were headed to anyway. This too I will cover distinctly.
@ollieography
By definition, when I discuss the nature of God, I am referring to the God who revealed Himself through the Bible. You are arguing that God must have had a beginning therefore he must have had a creator. This is not what the Bible teaches so you are refuting the wrong god. Not mine. The God of the Bible is uncaused, self-existent, and eternal. If you are not arguing against that God you are not refuting me. If you want to refute me you are either going to have to prove that the Bible does not teach the God I am defending or that the Bible is wrong. Good luck with that.
@Askegg
If i have misrepresented any of these points...meaning that you don't believe or teach these things then clear up my misunderstandings and explain what you really mean.
I appreciate the comments and I see that I did miss two points that should be added. Thanks
Marcus,
ReplyDeleteYou are repeating your claim that the universe "can't possibly be a coincidence". Since you are unwilling to entertain any other viewpoint - remember, you just said that it "can't possibly be" anything other than you contend - there's no use trying to debate with you. Regardless _what_ your viewpoint is, you've already made it very clear that you cannot and will not accept any other, so there is no use debating any of the issues.
@cbrunschen
ReplyDeleteI don't think I'm saying that at al. I'm saying that all the evidence I have access to leads me to the conclusion that the universe is designed. I never said that i would not entertain any other thought or opinions. If you disagree that the universe is not designed, then say why. Show me your evidence that it is not. As far as i can see the only thing you have to say that is not designed is faith. Show me some evidence. That is what I am asking for. Who said anything about not willing to discuss the issues. I'll follow the evidence where ewer it goes. No one has provided any evidence that the universe is not designed. I've studied science my whole life and I think that the conclusion that reality is not designed is completely untenable. Show that it is reasonable and I'll believe it. If you think the evidence is supportable, show me.
"The God of the Bible is uncaused, self-existent, and eternal"
ReplyDeleteThis is merely saying "I can't explain where God comes from and I refuse to, but invisible bearded guy living in the sky is OBVIOUSLY more realistic that an un-caused universe."
There's no arguing with that sort of illogical position. There is what is real, and there is what you BELIEVE. What is real exists and works for everyone, regardless of what you believe. What you believe is everything that is not there and has no impact on the universe when you stop believing. Gravity is fact, it makes no difference if you believe it or not, the ball still falls to the earth at exactly the same rate.
Religion is fairy-tales and myths. If you stop believing in them, NOTHING CHANGES. This is how you know they are fantasy.
As for the universe being designed, what is the design behind birth defects? If that's a design it's a really really bad one.
@Kreme
ReplyDeletei don't believe in an "invisible bearded guy living in the sky". You are right that is nonsensical and not what the Bible says about God at all. So we agree on that. The problem is we know that the universe is not uncaused. No physicist or scientist I know of is even suggesting such a crtazy idea. If you know of one, name him/her and where they said it and why they said it.
Stop believing in God and a lot changes. Why not start believing in God and see what changes? If you are right nothing. If I'm right everything changes. And i can say from personal experience that Knowing there is a God and having a relationship with Him is the most awesome experience you could ever have. Try Him
Birth defects don't show that there is no design. Your argument assumes that the universe must be a certain way and you make assumptions. The Bible never tells us that there will be no suffering and pain...it's part of the design. God know what He is doing and there is a purpose for everything even if we don't always know what that purpose is. But sometimes we do know. The Bible never says that God had in mind not to have any suffering and pain. It's not a bug...it's a feature of a sin-sick world for which Jesus is the only solution.
"The problem is we know that the universe is not uncaused. No physicist or scientist I know of is even suggesting such a crtazy idea"
ReplyDeleteExcept for EVERY physicist. What happened 'before' the big bang is completely, definitionally, unknowable. It is outside the scope of the universe. You can call it anything you want, but since we can never know the cause (if there was one) then it is the same as if it was un-caused. There is no "this happened and when it did it caused the universe to begin" and THERE NEVER CAN BE. You saying 'god' caused it to happen is not an issue, since that is something no one can ever know, it is soemthing that can never be wrong (or right). However, you saying that this thing outside of the universe that you believe caused the universe to be is involved int he day to day operation of YOUR life is both astonishingly self-centered and completely absurd and unprovable.
There is no more evidence for 'god' than there is for hobbits, unicorns, elves, dragons, Isis, moon ponies, jackalopes, Frankenstein's monster, werewolves, vampires, Zeus, or any other fantasy mythology story you care to name.
You can believe it if you want, but telling other people to believe it too and telling other people how to live their lives 'right' according to your beliefs is, again, astonishingly self-centered. What hubris to think that YOU know more than anyone else about how there lives should be led?
"Stop believing in God and a lot changes."
Nope, nothing AT ALL changed. Well, expect for having a bit more free time and being able to watch the early NFL games every week. Sun still came up in the morning, balls still feel to earth at 9.8m/s/s and the Earth still revolved around the sun.
"Birth defects don't show that there is no design."
They show that if there IS a design, it is a really bad one. As for your delusion about sin and Jesus and all that crap, sorry, I'm not going to talk about the vagaries of your mythology until you can show some evidence that god exists in any way whatsoever.
Since I reject your basic premise that god exists, I'm certainly not going to waste time on why this non-existent entity cares who I have sex with are what I eat on Fridays.
@Kreme.
ReplyDeleteIt's not about me. I'm not saying that God just involved int he day to day operation of MY life. Don't get it twisted I'm saying that God intervenes in the day-to-day operations for all that has exists, exists, or will ever exist.
Not all physicists agree with you when it comes to the beginning of universe. The way you talked about this is a long way of saying that the universe is eternal. No scientist is saying that...you are not even saying that. The eternality of the universe is what I'm arguing against, not that the universe began from a singlarity. And that doesn't conflict with the Bible either.
I'm just telling you the truth as it was given to me. Believe it. Don't believe it. I'm not telling you how to live your life. I didn't write the Bible. If you aren't happy with what it says you take it up with God. Now, if you want to argue that I am mis-stating scripture that's fine. We can discuss that.
I'm going to be presenting more evidence for how God's existence. I'd suggest looking at debates and evaluting the evidence. I have several such debates on this blog.\
My question to you is that the physical observation you cited begs the question of why? Why should balls fall to earth at 9.8 m/s. Why isn't 1 m/s? or something else? It's got to do with the mass and radius of the earth. If any of those things were different acceleration due to gravity would be different too.
You said that "Birth Defects show poor design and earlier you accused me of being self-centered. Do you know what true hubris is? It is arrogant for you to pretend you know what the design is to the point that you can judge it's quality. You don't know what God has in mind. God has a purpose for everything and with out God, your maker, how do you know what your purpose is? You don't. You don't know you fit into the purpose of it all. It sounds real arrogant to assume that you do know without the one who purposed you. Birth defects can have a purpose. Take the man born blind from John 8 who could see better than you can!
You have given no good reasons for rejecting God's existence.
"Why should balls fall to earth at 9.8 m/s. Why isn't 1 m/s?"
ReplyDeleteFirst off, it's 9.8m/s/s. Second of all, the WHY is because the mass of the earth is 5.9742 × 10^24 kg, and 5.9742 x10^24 kg exerts a gravitational effect of 9.8m/s/s.
"It is arrogant for you to pretend you know what the design is to the point that you can judge it's quality."
Really? a infant born with its brain outside its skull that is dead within hours is a good design? Your defense is that there is some invisible unprovable spirit out there that things a baby with it's brain outside it's body is a god thing? And you think that despite this spirit being totally invisible and totally unprovable, it INTENTIONALLY created this baby?
If that's true, then the spirit is a raging *hole and if he did exist, I'd punch him in the throat.
"You have given no good reasons for rejecting God's existence."
Yes I have: There is no more evidence for 'god' than there is for hobbits, unicorns, elves, dragons, Isis, moon ponies, jackalopes, Frankenstein's monster, werewolves, vampires, Zeus, or any other fantasy mythology story you care to name.
It's up to you to prove god does exist, and that is something that no one has ever been able to do. You can only prove that you WANT him to exist, or that you NEED to believe he does. There is not a single shred of proof, ever in the entire history of the human race that god exists.
None. Never. Nowhere. It's unicorns and hobbits, and that's all it is.
@kreme
ReplyDeleteYour number for the mass of the earth is right but 9.8 m/s/s is only true close to the earth's surface and you missed my point entirely. Newton's Law of Gravitation describes this but it doesn't answer why and it dodges the point that so much depends on this. Life as we know it on life would not be possible if these things were just tuned in this way. IF you think that it's like this by undirected natural forces all on their own then you have way more faith than I do.
Who are you to say that baby with a brain outside his/her body does not have a purpose. I still think that's arrogant.
You can't punch God in the throat. You aren't in the position of judging Him or his decisions. You have no right.
You call just asserting that there is no evidence for God by spouting out the names of characters and entities that exist only inside the imaginations of people evidence against the existence of God? Pretty weak.
No one has been able to disprove the existence of God either. All you have managed to do is that you don't like the God of the Bible. You don't want to be accountable your creator. That's not a reason to not believe in Him. The truth is that we know God by faith, but it's not blind faith such as yours in your own worldview. We have evidence that the Bible is true. I've already aluded to it.
"No one has been able to disprove the existence of God"
ReplyDeleteThat's true. No one can disprove the existence of anything. Pink unicorns? Hobbits? Flying monkeys? Yep, can't disprove the existence of any of them. Logic 101, you can't prove a negative.
As I've said it is up to you to prove existence, not up to use to disprove it.
"We have evidence that the Bible is true"
Not in terms of the existence of god, satan, or angels.
@Kreme
ReplyDeleteIf you can't disprove that God, Satan, or angels exist then why disbelieve it? And you can't use the same rational as Pink unicorns or Hobbits or Flying monkeys. If you can't disprove their existence then why do you reject them? You can't use that argument because what does it matter if they do or not exist. If the Bible is right and there is a God, then you are accountable to Him and responsible for everything you think, say, feel, and do! The standard reply is "there is no evidence". Then you try to apply that to God. There is evidence for God. The very design and complexity of the universe screams and declares His Glory. I can go down the road of appealing to my personal experience but both of these evidences you would reject, but they're still evidence. You have no really good reason to reject anything just because you don't think the evidence is not sufficient. How do you know you have all the evidence? IF you have never heard God, then it's because you aren't listening. All of the creation is calling out to you but ignore it. You even ignore your consciousness of "right" and "wrong" although you can't come up with any logical explanation of why it's there, written on your soul. I know it is because of the animosity you have against God, blaming Him for evil - when it's not even His fault.
@Kreme
ReplyDeleteBy that way, thanks for admitting that the Bible has true things in it!
"Once you try Jesus you will never go back."
ReplyDeleteYou are wrong.
--freeplay
Hey thanks for the link, I'll give it a fuller response later but just glancing at it, I don't think he was ever a real Christian. I'll explain why I say that from a Biblical point-of-view.
ReplyDeleteThat's ME, jackass. Thanks for immediately calling me a liar. You can now proceed to get fucked.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, any explanation you give will be based on *YOUR* interpretation of the Bible. It's ENTIRELY subjective. The whole "no true Christian" thing is a WELL-ESTABLISHED LOGICAL FALLACY.
ReplyDeleteYour arrogance and willful ignorance know no bounds.
You didn't bother to read the link? He describes ferverent christian belief with the intimacy that only one who has lived there could express. Read the mans statement before you dismiss it with "I win and I'll tell you why later". That is utterly dismissive and dishonest.
ReplyDelete@MikeTheInfidel and @Anonymous
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying that you are a liar. I'm saying that you don't know what a Christian is. I'll explain more in my post. The Bible either say what we say it does or it doesn't. For example in your essay you said that God lies but I can find no place in the entire Bible where it says God lies. Provide the Book, Chapter and verse.
Besides if you truly studied the faith and your friend points out the apocrapha why would that knock you for a loop? Every Christian who has studied this know about that. Why didn't you? There is good reason why those books aren't in the Bible many Christians used: they were Jewish books that they left out of their own cannon! They rejected them as scripture so do Christians...including many Catholics. Why didn't you know that?
I did read the link but it deserves a fuller response then I can give here in my comments. I wasn't trying to be dismissive or dishonest. Accusing me of such is wrong. The only arrogance and willful ignorance I see here is yours.
"If you can't disprove that God, Satan, or angels exist then why disbelieve it? And you can't use the same rational as Pink unicorns or Hobbits or Flying monkeys. If you can't disprove their existence then why do you reject them?"
ReplyDeleteMarcus, since you can't disprove pink unicorns , hobbits, or flying monkeys - then why do you reject the existence of them as a possibility? You can't disprove any of them do not actually exist, so why do you believe they don't?
" I don't think he was ever a real Christian"
ReplyDelete"They rejected them as scripture so do Christians...including many Catholics."
In other words - anyone who disagrees with YOUR interpretation of the Bible, God, divinity, or anything else is wrong. They are not TRUE Christians. Unfortunately for you, we hear this all the time from all sorts of believers.
Suicide bombers aren't REAL Muslims. Doctor murdering anti-abortionists aren't REAL Christians. Parent who kill their babies by cutting of his head, skinning him, and eating is organs aren't REAL Christians. People who believe in Saints aren't REAL Christians (although believing in Angels, Demons, souls, and ghosts is OK).
Pull your head out of you ass and try to see things from another's point of view. These people truly believe they are the correct interpretation of their religion, just as you do. They ALL lack actual evidence to support their claims, or the ability to demonstrate their faith actually works in the real world.
Tell me, what drove you to Christianity in the first place? The overwhelming evidence? Did you examine all the data supporting other religions as well? Or did you simply decide that the thought of God made you all warm and fuzzy, so you decided to believe in it. The supposed "evidence" came later as an after thought to support your delusion.
@askegg
ReplyDeleteI don't worry about unicorns, hobbits, or flying monkeys. I don't think their existence or non-existence affect me any way. God's existence is very different. As I've argued before. You seem to love to dodge the issue by appealing to other entities. Please stop with the red herrings. We are well-past that.
Look, I take the Bible as my ultimate authority and I am well aware that not everyone agrees with my interpretation. However, to argue that because people have a different interpretation invalidates my own is stupid. Language means something. If you can show how my interpretation is wrong I will admit to being wrong and change. It's that simple. Reading a text and gaining a comprehension of the author is not subjective according to the one reading it it. You said "Pull your head out of your ass and try to see things from another point of view." What if I said what you really meant was that you love God and the Bible is completely true. You would accuse me of not being able to read english. And you would be right. Why do you change that hermanuetic when it comes to reading the Bible? Who is being dishonest? Not I. We've discussed why I believe and why you don't. I see it because of God's grace and mercy. I believe because its where all the evidence point. The Bible is true in every way I can test. The evidence from fine-tuning and design of reality and the universe as well as a personal relationship with God all combine to tell me that the Bible is right. And I have to follow God where ever He sends me. I believe because it makes the most sense. All your denials are delusions covering up the fact that you don't want to submit to our creator.
By the way, ghosts as a natural reality are not supportable according to the Bible. And your silly remark:
"Doctor murdering anti-abortionists aren't REAL Christians. Parent who kill their babies by cutting of his head, skinning him, and eating is organs aren't REAL Christians. People who believe in Saints aren't REAL Christians" all you gotta do is show that the Bible says these very things are okay. The Bible does support angels and demons. If it's true...then what is wrong with it?
"The Bible either say what we say it does or it doesn't. For example in your essay you said that God lies but I can find no place in the entire Bible where it says God lies. Provide the Book, Chapter and verse."
ReplyDeleteII Thessalonians 2:11.
"There is good reason why those books aren't in the Bible many Christians used: they were Jewish books that they left out of their own cannon! They rejected them as scripture so do Christians...including many Catholics. Why didn't you know that?"
Maybe you should learn WHY they were rejected, and why some of the SIMILAR pseudepigrapha was left in.
"I did read the link but it deserves a fuller response then I can give here in my comments. I wasn't trying to be dismissive or dishonest. Accusing me of such is wrong. The only arrogance and willful ignorance I see here is yours."
You weren't trying to be dismissive; no, you were only trying to completely throw out my entire upbringing in FIVE WORDS.
You're an arrogant prick and you don't deserve any more attention than I've given you.
@MikeTheInfidel
ReplyDeleteAre you really sure you want to take 2 Thessalonians 2:11 that way? Please read the verse in context verses 5 - 12!
5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
It tells us that the people getting the delusion have already chosen to deceived themeselves. Your exegesis needs a lot of work.
I have studied the issues behind Biblical cannon and and transmission and it didn't make me give up my faith. Why did it make you give up yours? I've honestly considered it and see nothing wrong with the way we got our 66 books. If you are willing to discuss it further, I'd be more than please to because if that is one of the reasons you gave up being a Christian then you didn't understand.
I wasn't trying to throw out your upbringing. You said you were raised up in a Christian household and now you are not a Christian. You threw out your upbringing, not me. Now that is what I would call arrogance.
As for the personal insult...God still loves you. And if you were ever really His, you will be back just like the prodigal son when he realized that he was about to eat pig slop but could do much better by going home.
To whom it may concern, I have repsonded to MiketheInfidel here: http://mmcelhaney.blogspot.com/2009/07/response-to-breaking-it-in.html
ReplyDelete