Responding to Brennon's Thoughts: Response to Marcus: More on Trauma in Sovereignty à la James Swan

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For some reasons and I guess I should research why, sometimes people have problems commenting on Blogger blogs. my brother-in-Christ Brennon tried to respond to a responding post I made to one of his blogs and couldn't get his comment accepted by Blogger. I don't know why. But he was kind enough to post his response on his own blog. I'm responding in kind. My response to his response is in bold. I have been following Dr. James White's interaction with Dr. Michael Brown on some of these very issues.  I have great admiration and respect for both men and I really liked how they were able to disagree and not be disagreeable! I want to thank Brennon for his interaction. In all the time that I have corresponded with him his salvation, integrity, and kindness have never been absent nor in question.

I have been trying to comment on a response to my response to James Swan of Alpha and Omega Ministries (found here) from Marcus. The post I am responding to is found here. His contentions are in italics.

I think you're missing one of the main premises in my argument, and that is that God creating free agents whom He knows would sin does not somehow cause Him to share in their responsibility for those sins. That seemed to be one of Swan's main points, but I see no reason to impute responsibility of the acts of individual agents to God. The only thing we could say if we were to complain is that God was negligent somehow in creating free creatures even though He knew they would sin. But that, as I say, is just the problem of evil.

I think Swan's argument was that the Arminian position does not really answer why God is not responsible for evil. 

Now, to defend my arguments:

The problem is that it does not answer the issues raised in Scripture that we see that God does not just ordain events but also decrees them.

Here is the problem with this argument. You are assuming determinism in this premise itself. What we are trying to determine is whether God is the one decreeing all human actions in the argument between theistic determinism and libertarianism. So to say that the reason I am wrong is because God decrees these sins is begging the question.

Decreeing events and decreeing sins are no the same thing. We see that God can and has stopped people from sinning. This means that he could stop all people from sinning. Why doesn't he? 

 ¹ Now Abraham moved on from there into the region of the Negev and lived between Kadesh and Shur. For a while he stayed in Gerar, ² and there Abraham said of his wife Sarah, "She is my sister." Then Abimelech king of Gerar sent for Sarah and took her.
 ³ But God came to Abimelech in a dream one night and said to him, "You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken; she is a married woman."
 ⁴ Now Abimelech had not gone near her, so he said, "Lord, will you destroy an innocent nation? ⁵ Did he not say to me, 'She is my sister,' and didn't she also say, 'He is my brother'? I have done this with a clear conscience and clean hands."
 ⁶ Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her. ⁷ Now return the man's wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all yours will die." - Genesis 20:1-6

God tells Abimelech that he did not touch Sarah not because he didn't want to but God stopped him from doing it. Yet Abimeleh was also told that if he did not choose to give Sarah back he was going to die. Therefore sometimes we see that God dictates terms. Sometimes God makes us do right and sometimes God allows us to make the decision and live with the consequences. How do we know in what circumstances God will do which or other? That's up to God.

In Genesis 50 we find Joseph, whose brothers sold him into the evil of slavery, who lied to their father breaking his heart, claiming Joseph was dead. In front of his brothers, years later Joseph states, "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive." The two statements in Hebrew are in direct parallel. Joseph's brothers meant evil by their actions, but God intended the same actions for good.

According to the Genesis 50 passage, there is no reason to think that God actively caused Joseph's brothers to sin. That seems to implicate God in that He took part in their sin. No, He simply used their sin to accomplish a far greater good, which actually supports my first argument against the POE.

I distinctly said that God did not force His brothers to do evil. But Swan's argument does come up. How do you reconcile that God could have stopped Joseph's brothers from  selling Joseph into slavery. But God didn't. What God did was use them to save the whole world from famine - the greater good. God could have done all of this a different way, but He did it this way. Why? I don't know. Think for a second of how many choices had to be made for Joseph's life and Genesis to unfold as it did? It's innumerable. I'm willing to bet that God did a lot more in all of their lives too, not just Joseph's life. Each and every life unfolded the way God purposed before hand.  And everyone - to a point - did what they wanted to do....as far as they knew. Same thing for us.

This same principle can be found in Isaiah 10: 5-12, where God uses Assyria as an instrument of judgment on the rebellious people of Israel, and then holds Assyria responsible for her sinful attitude and desires against Israel.

Same for Isaiah 10. God uses the sins that these individual agents contrived through their own powers of deliberation, through their own wills, for His purposes. He did not purpose or decree or make necessary the sins or actions of individuals, but in foreknowing the sin worked them out for His eternal purposes.

 Brennon, is that really what the passage say? 

 ⁵ "Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger,
       in whose hand is the club of my wrath!
 ⁶ I send him against a godless nation,
       I dispatch him against a people who anger me,
       to seize loot and snatch plunder,
       and to trample them down like mud in the streets.
 ⁷ But this is not what he intends,
       this is not what he has in mind;
       his purpose is to destroy,
       to put an end to many nations.
 ⁸ 'Are not my commanders all kings?' he says.
 ⁹ 'Has not Calno fared like Carchemish?
       Is not Hamath like Arpad,
       and Samaria like Damascus?
 ¹⁰ As my hand seized the kingdoms of the idols,
       kingdoms whose images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria-
 ¹¹ shall I not deal with Jerusalem and her images
       as I dealt with Samaria and her idols?' "
 ¹² When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, "I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes.

God distinctly says that Assyria is doing what God wants and they don't know it and God is going to punish Assyrians for their sins - judging them for their sinful hearts and attitudes. Is this fair? No, but it Just. Justice does not equal fairness.


The most important example of compatibilism though is Acts 4:27-28. Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles and the Jews all sinfully join forces to crucify Jesus. Yet God's predestined the entire event for his holy purpose.

Same with the Acts 4 passage. God knew that when placed in the situation they were that Pilate and the Pharisees would choose to crucify Jesus. He allowed them to freely act knowing how they would act. He did not cause them to act.

If God had not put Pilate and the Jewish leaders in those situation, could they have chosen to crucify Jesus? No. Sounds like  God was in control. Look at verse 28.

²⁸They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

I would argue that its impossible for an unregenerate human being to relate with God. Unregenerate sinner are spiritually dead, remember? Completely unable to obey or even respond to God. All we can do on our own is rebel

The issue isn't whether man in his natural state can do anything to relate to God. Both you and I recognize the need for God's grace because man is totally unable and unwilling to come to Him without His drawing. The issue is whether we can choose to reject this drawing. If we can't, then the entire relationship aspect is called into question. Is a relationship where one side causes the other side to not be able to choose not to be in the relationship a genuine one?

It's not an equal relationship. We both agree that you can do nothing of your own to initiate it. If we can't initiate it, why should we think we can reject it? Apostasy is explained in 1st John 2:19

¹⁹They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

 I understand this to mean that if you are an apostate you were never really in relationship in the first place...not that you changed your mind.  I can find no scripture that leads me to the conclusion that God gives you just enough grace so you can choose to accept or reject Christ.

It's interesting to me how people are quick to give us the freedom to reject a relationship with God, yet no thought seems to be given that God could choose who to be in relationship with of God's own free will.

I certainly recognize that it is entirely God's prerogative whom He chooses to show mercy to; whom He chooses to be in a relationship with. I simply believe the scriptures teach that God has purposed to extend His love to all human beings and to allow them to freely come to Him or reject Him.

I'm sorry I don't understand. Can you recognize that God can choose who to have a relationship with and who not to have a relationship with and then argue that God must extend at least enough grace to everyone to give them the option to chose to come to Him or reject Him at the same time? How does that work?

I think reality may be explained by the the point that God can arbitrarily do whatever God wants at any time.

This contention baffles me, Marcus. If you are correct, then God is the author of sin and He irrationally blames us for the sin He has made necessary. It would contradict the scriptures which indicate that God only does what is good! If this is the case, then how do we differentiate between the works of the devil and the works of God? Indeed, the works of the devil actually are the works of God, since God is the one who decrees and makes necessary the works of the devil, if theistic determinism is true.

Let me give an example. I agree that everything God does is good, but it depends on your point of view about what is good.  Was it good for Pharaoh when God ran over him to free Israel while working through Moses? What about the Amorites and the Amalekites? Not good for them the way we think it was good but it was justice. When bad things happen to us it's justice because we deserve to go to hell.  When good happens that is mercy because we don't deserve it. I would further contend that none of know what "good" is because none of us good. In relationship with God we are learning what "good" is.  The sin in the garden is being used by God for larger purposes with the purpose of glorifying God at it's center. American slavery was an evil thing. But without it, I  and my relations and most of the people I am close to, perhaps every single American, would not exist in the form we do now and if we did, how do I know I would have ever heard the Gospel, believe, and be saved. I don't. This is the way God has decided to do it and it was set up long before any of us was here.

⁴For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love ⁵he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— ⁶to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. ⁷In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace ⁸that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. ⁹And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, ¹⁰to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. - Ephesians 1:4-10

My assertion was "He has the right to create free agents, allow them to sin, and hold them responsible for those sins." I don't think He has the right to create people and cause them to sin and then hold them responsible for that sin. That would be totally irrational; a logical contradiction. But God is not irrational and cannot do logically contradictory things.


George Bryson and James White faced off on this question years ago, and Brennon I think you are explaining your position much better than Bryson did!  I want to be clear I'm not saying that God causes us to sin. I am saying that we have no other choice but to sin unless God chooses to save us. I agree God is no irrational or illogical but I don't think we are qualified to define what irrational or illogical really is because until God reveal his will and the plan to us we have no idea - our view point is tainted always. Let's look at Joseph again Why was he able to forgive his brothers and accept the events of his life. He could not catch a break. At times he must have felt like everything he touched was disintegrating in his hand. What did he take away from  his life? At times it sucked, but it was all for good in the end. 


For anyone reading this you can find Brennon's post before this one you can find it at the link below.


Brennon's Thoughts: Response to Marcus: More on Trauma in Sovereignty à la James Swan

There was a comment that I felt also needed to be responded to I thought

One of the basic problems with determinists is that they confuse power with morality. Does God have the sovereign right to arbitrarily do whatever He wants? Yes, He has that power. But if He were to do so, He would stop being good by His own standards. It also goes against Scripture which states that God never changes (and Scriptures emphasis when it says this is God's character).

 God's character shows us that God does have the right to do whatever he wants. Everything belongs to him...without exception. Why would God doing whatever He wants, whenever He wants, however He wants invalidate God's goodness? I have to reject that God's character would change because everything God does is good....even if I disagree....especially if I disagree because like Paul there is no good in me....or any of us!