Thursday, September 9, 2010

Brennon's Thoughts: Verses All Arminians Should Know Part 6

Brennon has posted a great list of scriptures that support Arminianism. I'm not certain that they support the Arminian position. Rather than try to responding to them all at once, I will break them down into several posts based on how the list is presented.This topic interests me because I really wanna know what the Bible says. Here is part 1 regarding the idea that Bible teaches that God gives us prevenient grace."Prevenient grace" means grace that is equally applied to the hearts and minds of everyone given that they have enough grace to   come to a decision to give their hearts to Christ.



Verses demonstrating God's prevenient grace
 3 The LORD appeared to us in the past, saying:
       "I have loved you with an everlasting love;
       I have drawn you with loving-kindness.

I think this would work it the passage was directed to every human being. It wasn't. The context is to the people of God in general, to the people of Judah in particular.
 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

Again Jesus was not referring to all people at all times. 
  • Romans 2:4 - It is God's grace that leads us to repentance.
4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

    God's grace does lead us to repentance and this is a statement that can be applied to everyone. But the chapter is talking about general revelation not special revelation.

 14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
 16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.


I agree that God's word goes to all people. And its through that that some us are saved. But as the parable of sower Jesus gave sometimes that seed does not fall on good ground.
 11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

    The NIV says the grace appeared not given to all men. I believe the passage is referring to saving grace and if everyone was give that everyone would be saved.

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    5 comments:

    1. bossmanhamSeptember 9, 2010 at 10:41 AM

      Again Jesus was not referring to all people at all times.

      It says He came to convict the world of sin. By what reasoning are you restricting the meaning?

      The NIV says the grave appeared not given to all men. I believe the passage is referring to saving grace and if everyone was give that everyone would be saved.

      But you're not getting that from the text, but from a prior presupposition. What does the verse say? It says that grace that leads to salvation has appeared to all men.

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    2. mmcelhaneySeptember 9, 2010 at 3:18 PM

      Hi, Brennon. Thanks for the comments!

      In John 16:7-11, Jesus is saying that all men will be convicted of sin, but it does not say that the comfort and the consoling nature of the work of the Holy Spirit was for everyone. Everyone is convicted of sin but not everyone is saved nor declared righteous.

      I meant to say that I don't think the passage refers to saving grace because if it was given to all men then all men would be saved. No where does the Bible say that everyone get an equal amount of grace so that they can choose to reject or deny Christ. No one comes to Christ without grace but I don't see how we can get prevenient grace without presupposing that our will is necessary.

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    3. bossmanhamSeptember 11, 2010 at 11:30 AM

      In John 16:7-11, Jesus is saying that all men will be convicted of sin, but it does not say that the comfort and the consoling nature of the work of the Holy Spirit was for everyone. Everyone is convicted of sin but not everyone is saved nor declared righteous.

      I agree with that, but prevenient grace is grace that goes before any sort of conversion, simply by the nature of the words. If there is grace and a person has not been converted, it is prevenient grace. I don't think this grace has to be accepted.

      I also agree that not everyone may get an equal amount of grace, but I do think that everyone is given some grace.

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    4. mmcelhaneySeptember 11, 2010 at 11:39 AM

      I agree that everyone gets some grace. The things is that prevenient grace isn't enough for conversion.

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    5. mmcelhaneySeptember 11, 2010 at 11:41 AM

      I don't see how prevenient grace is enough for a person to overcome their sinful nature and see that they need a savior and turn their lives over to Christ - that is if prevenient grace is defined as enough grace to do that.

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