What evidence would I accept for the claim that god exists? That's easy. All he would have to do is show up, once, -or- he could supernaturally change the way my brain works so that I no longer need evidence and am willing to accept as fact, wild claims that are based on ancient religious documents.At least Loftus and Bob are honest. There is no evidence good enough to make a unbeliever give up his/her unbelief without direct intervention from God. However it's not because God changes you so that you don't need evidence to believe, God frees your mind so that you can accept the evidence that we do have instead of looking for loop holes for wiggle room so that one does not have to believe. That is why Loftus' comment makes sense - there is no evidence that will turn a man or woman to God without direct intervention from God. Consider the following passage:
5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. - Romans 8:5-8The Bible clearly says that in our sinful state, we are unable to obey God and minds are hostile to God. Does that sound familiar? Look at the attitude of many atheists have towards the commands of God in Bible. Further another passages tells us even more
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. - John 3:19Now look at the summary of John Loftus' logic:
Thanks to Mariano Grinbank for pointing out this graphic to me. Very timely. I got this graphic a few minutes before I saw the quote from John Loftus' blog. What is adultery? A sin. Not just a sin but something that Loftus knew was wrong. Instead of taking the responsibility for his own actions, Lofuts says there is no God because God did not stop him or change him. Reminds me of Jesus' words about men loving their sin rather than the light they have been given. The evidence is plain. But if there is a God that means that we are accountable for the sins we commit.
I want to be clear. I'm not picking on Loftus. All of us are evil and deserve hell. This is the bottom line. Believers are saved because of God's grace and goodness not because of anything in us. I just wish people would be honest about their sin rather than just pretend that there is not enough evidence to believe in God and that he has spoken to us through the Bible.
Debunking Christianity: Quote of the Day, by Bob
Marcus said "I want to be clear. I'm not picking on Loftus."
ReplyDeleteHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhAHAHAHAHAH!!! Thanks for that, I needed a good laugh this morning.
I bet the next line:
ReplyDeleteAll of us are evil and deserve hell.
Had you rolling on the floor, too...
no wait,must have been when you had your "born-again experience that you were rolling on the floor.
No, it made me sad for you. It was a roller coaster ride of emotion.
ReplyDeleteYou mean like your worldview? Devoid of all value.
ReplyDeleteSo you keep saying. Although I'm not sure how a world view can or even should provide "value".
ReplyDeleteBut seriously, I think you are developing an unhealthy obesesion with John Loftus.
By "Value" I mean meaning. And I have a lot of posts not dealing John Loftus at all. And the posts are bigger than Loftus. Keep ignoring that you are in the same boat as Loftus and that boat is leaking.
ReplyDeleteMeaning doesn't come from a "worldview" it comes from finding meaning in your life. If your religion give you meaning, good for you, I guess, but it just seems like you could get more.
ReplyDeleteA worldview gives you a barometer for finding meaning in your life. IT defines the standard by which you measure value. It's obvious that you don't understand Christianity because it's far more than religion. IT's not just something you do habitually at certain times every week. If that is all it was for you, then no wonder you found it empty.
ReplyDeleteOK, now you seem obsessed on whether I was actually a christian or not.
ReplyDeleteI already addressed all your points regarding that on a previous post.
No...not obessesed. We already agreed that you weren't. My point is that being a Christian means adopting a worldview that affects every part of your life.
ReplyDeletethat was obsessed
ReplyDeleteI did that. But adopting a world view doesn't mean the world view is valid.
ReplyDeleteNo adopting a world view doesn't mean its true.. yours is a case in point.
ReplyDeleteIt's almost as if you just said "nannynanny booboo".
ReplyDeleteNo, that sounds different. I'm saying that your worldview is meaningless without God...and you are so blind you can't even recognize it. So sad. I sure hope God does something in your life so you see the truth of his purposes for your life. You can't change your worldview like you change your socks. If you ever were a real christian, you would not be able to walk away because the metamorphosis is too radical.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to deny God's existence and the veracity of the Bible...fine. Just stop pretending that ever were a believer.
Oh, I was a believer. There's no denying that.
ReplyDeleteNope...you weren't. You were not a new creation. You never were transformed by the renewing of your mind. You weren't a believer. You can start over and do it for real this time.
ReplyDeleteMarcus; I was, you can't deny it. I saw through the facad tried harder, eventually figuredit out, then gave it up and found real peace. It took a long time, it wasn't like changing my socks.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to discuss substantive things, fine, but I'm done with your dime store proselytizing.
I'm not proselytizing you. I'm hoping that God saves you but I can see that you aren't open-minded at all as to what the Bible says.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that there is anything I can say to make you see as you should see.
ReplyDeleteI hope someone does
ReplyDelete"I can see that you aren't open-minded at all as to what the Bible says."
ReplyDeleteI think an analogy that works for what you just said is you are basically at an AA meeting telling someone that even though they might have had a problem with vodka, they weren't drinking the right drink, which is single malt scotch. It's mildly offensive and very annoying. And no, it's not the "truth of the gospels that's offensive", it's the insistance that we consider it from the point of view of every huckster that comes along.
I was very open minded about the bible for what is still the majority of my life. But it's unreasonable to keep considering things that are fairly obvious from every possible angle ad infinitum.
Does that mean I don't have an open mind about the truth of the Jesus myths? Maybe. Is that unreasonable, absolutely not.
Of course its unreasonable because the "Jesus Myths" makes no sense. Ir is about over-reaching. As for being offended because I won't buy your "I was a believer who now doesn't believe" pretension I'm offended by it. What proof do you have that you believed? Why did you believe? How can you say you believed when your experience does not match mine nor anyone that I know who has lived this life successfully as the Bible defines it? Your experience does match people I know who just thought that they were born-again and weren't. I find it very offensive when someone misrepresents the Bible and twists it. Again, feel free to disagree with what it says, but don't think I can just allow you to think it says that which it does not say.
ReplyDeleteMarcus, what proof do you have that you believed?
ReplyDeleteWell, you don't know me, and I don't know your experience so I can't say if yours does or doesn't closely match mine. You may have read mine on my blogspot site, but like I've said before, from what I've seen, my experience, both the specific "born again experience" and the long term "life as a christian experience", does closely match most of the christians I've met. But you say "How can you say you believed when your experience does not match mine nor anyone that I know who has lived this life successfully as the Bible defines it?" and the short answer to that is there are 30,000 different sects of christianity. Of course MANY christians are going to have a different experience from you and your COGIC friends.
Examples of what I've misrepresented in the bible?
"How can you say you believed when your experience does not match mine nor anyone that I know who has lived this life successfully as the Bible defines it?" and the short answer to that is...
ReplyDeleteAnd the shorter answer is that my experience probably does match yours and at least some of those you know.