Islam and Christianity A Common Word: My thoughts on the Ergun Caner James White dispute

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The blogger from Islam and Christianity A Common Word has posted a summary response to the Caner/White debate playing out over the Internet. I just want to comment on about half the post. I don't know enough about Ergun Caner to comment on his character or ministry. However I have been reading and watching Dr. James R White for almost 6 years. Although the blogger has no respect for Caner because he believes Caner to be dishonest, the blogger almost seems to go out of his way to show how White can't be trusted. I respectfully disagree. My comments will be italicized.

Now on to James White. James White though not a flat liar and full of deciet like Ergun Caner nonetheless has some serious issues to contend with. For example I couldn't help but notice a theological paradox that James White get's himself involved in when advising Ergun Caner in the following way,

"Dr. Caner, when speaking about the sacrifice of Christ, one can trust the Spirit to make the words alive in the hearts of God's elect. You don't need to make up fake debates just to wow an audience. "

Hmmm this is interesting. If the Spirit is what makes words alive in the hearts of God's elect what theological implications does this hold for James White? For example would it not be impossible for James White to ever admit to a wrong doing? I think anyone who debates James White has to seriously look into this very heavy Calvinist presupposition. Since they are sealed in Christ as many of the hardshells believed to be in pre regeneration is it possible for them to ever err? 

I have to say that I believe the blogger's viewpoint is being shaped by the Islamic view that all prophets are sinless while they are ministering and can't make mistakes. As a Christian, I know what it's like to experience the Holy Spirit at work in my own heart and have seen the work of the Spirit in others. I also realize that this does not make me perfect of sinless. I'm working on myself to get rid of sin although I am justified because of Christ. God sees me and judges me perfect although it is not yet actualized. Can the blogger say the same? Of course it's possible for White or I to error and still be saved. We just aren't supposed to make it a practice to sin on purpose. We are supposed to live holy on purpose!

The reason I say this is because James White high on himself in pointing out Ergun Caner's mistakes doesn't want you to see this video.

I don't get that from White. He's confident in the truth God has given him and is seeking more truth. He is also humble about his own worth. He's a freakin' Calvinist! Anyone remember the "T" in "TULIP" stands for "Total Depravity"? As far as White's concern that he is as worthless as the rest of us without Jesus. Without Jesus we are dead in sin and bound lock, stock, and barrel for hell because that is what we deserve! I've never heard White back down from an accusation. If you really have something why don't you send him the video below and call him on his webcast and give him to respond.

Notice the quote at 2:23 is not from the book he claimed it to come from? Than when we actually find the source it goes back to another source and another.... and... so forth. In fact in this debate James White did a very horrible job of trying to prove why the scriptures were inspired. The Christians felt it was a victory. Allah willing I will post this debate in the near future with commentary on why I felt Shabir Ally devastated James in this debate. The least of which is that James uses circular reasoning namely the sciptures are inspired because they say so. This also doesn't clarify for us which of those scriptures are inspired and which are not.

I'll be waiting for this post. Please be sure to document which debate it is, the date, and the location. 

The point being though is that James made an error here. He has not attempted to rectify this he has simply had some of those who dote on him respond by saying well is the source correct or not? Shabir Ally responded to it in the debate. So James White has still yet to make the correction. Now if the Holy Spirit inspires one what to say and James White is always abiding by the Holy Spirit and has always been pre-regenerated in Christ Jesus this has serious implications for anyone debating him.

I've never heard a Christian use the term "pre-regenerated". I hope that the blogger will provide a link to a post where he will explain what he means. I don't buy Ally's explanation because he didn't really explain why he knew the story was wrong. Also by asserting that White said he quoted a source that he says he did not quote is calling him a liar. I've never heard White respond to it. The blogger seems desperate to discredit James White. If the blogger will not call in to White's webcast, I will.

Obviously the man can never be wrong! James White doesn't believe that 'We' come to the truth on any matters. When he says 'We' this should be understood as 'those of you who don't yet believe as I do'. This is another reason why James White believes he doesn't have to prove the Trinity because it's revealed by the Holy Spirit, he simply has to defend it.

I have heard James White on many occasions admit to being fallible and to not being perfect on all matters! I think the blogger is not being fair to the man at all. I hear most Muslim apologists try to argue that the Bible does not teach the Trinity not that the Trinity can't be proven. Agreed that the Trinity is a revelation but its a revelation based on scripture that Muhammad himself said that you, as Muslim, should believe. If it wasn't in the scripture, White would abandon it. So would I. You have written that Allah is not omnipresent because he completely transcends space-time -  existing completely out of space and time. How would you know such a being without revelation? How do you prove that the God of the Qur'an exist?

He doesn't have to give reasons how the Bible came to be collected in the manner it is today, and what makes it inspired he simply believes. This is all fair and well, and James does come off as looking polished and forceful in debates. Yet, when you look a little closer at his position and arguments he has to be one of the worst Christian apologist of all time.

I totally disagree. Did you read the King James Only Controversy? He has written a whole book on the transmission of th Bible and why we know it is inspired and why we can be sure we know what it says.

Let's look at the facts:

1) James White has never proven the Trinity to be true, that's not his theological position. He simply defends the doctrine of the Trinity.

 How does the blogger prove that Allah wants Muslims to pray 5 times a day facing Mecca?

2) James White has never shown us who chose the New Testament canon and how it came to be regarded as scripture (doing so ventures into Catholic territory) something James wishes to avoid at all cost.

Again, read the King James Only Controversy. I think the blogger does not know much about White. If he did he would know that White has debated many a Catholic theologian/priests/apologists. He wrote a whole book - The Roman Catholic Controversy! What does the blogger mean White does not want to mix it up with Catholics. He just debated Roman Catholic apologist Tim Staples on Purgatory about 4 weeks ago!!!

3) James White never gives reasons why the Bible is inspired (God-breathed) for example scientific miracles, prophecy fufilment or anything that can be falsified proved and disproven. He simply makes the statement that the New Testament gives some vague reference to inspiration and for him that alone is sufficient.

Please go read the KJV Only Controversy and I think the Blogger should read and listen to more of White's work.

4) James White can never honestly look out at an audience and say 'God loves you'. If he did say it he should clarify by asserting that God loves everyone in that audience. His theological position cannot allow him to say this.

Can the blogger look at an audience and say "Allah love you" as in everyone in the audience?  No? Because it's more complicated than that? I'll take that answer but White would have to give the blogger the same answer.

Conclusion:

Ergun Caner's bad point (liar , charlatan, and Christian con man)

Ergun Caner's plus point (salesman, entertainer, mic skills, theologically Arminian)

Kind of scary that the blogger considers Caner's arminianism a plus given how Islam has it's own version of predestination.

James White's bad point ( inconsistency , poor exegesis, inability to make the Bible credible, theologically Calvinist)

James White's plus point (his crafty style of debating which doesnt' really involve meaningful exchange, just trying his best to shift the burden of proof on his opponent without having to defend anything himself) , His emphasis is not on winning souls it's upon debates and it can't be do his theological position as a Calvanist.

As much street preaching White has done....all the world-travel...all the books....all the study....to be said that he doesn't care about winning souls seems completely dishonest. I've never seen Dr. White shy away from explaining why the truth is on his side. The blogger not only shows a misunderstanding of the Trinity but of Calvinism also.

Islam and Christianity A Common Word: My thoughts on the Ergun Caner James White dispute

Islam and Christianity A Common Word: "Ex Muslim" Ergun Caner Exposed by Christians

I've recently have discovered a great blog called Islam and Christianity A Common Word and although I don't agree with much of Islam, I've got to give the blogger credit on good material that requires good answers and deep thought. In this post I have linked to is a deconstruction of a video by Ergun Caner from a Muslim point of view. It attempts to document the errors and lies that many Muslims believe he is guilty of. It's instructive because the blogger sees Caner's tactics and offensiveness as one-in-the-same as failures in Christianity. This is why James White coming out and saying Caner is wrong is important. Caner is making all Christians look bad and when people loose their respect for you it is really hard for them to hear you declare the Gospel. You can really see that in the blog post, even if you agree with Caner and not with White.

IsIslam and Christianity A Common Word: "Ex Muslim" Ergun Caner Exposed by Christians

Islam and Christianity A Common Word: "Ex Muslim" Dr. Ergun Caner accepts James White's challenge...

Here is another great post from  Islam and Christianity A Common Word. It's again concerning the dispute between James White and Ergun Caner. My remarks will be in red.The blogger seems to spend time criticizing White.

Bismillah ir rahman ir raheem
As salamu 'alikum wr wb
(May the Peace,Mercy of Allah and Blessings be upon you)


"Ex Muslim” Dr. Ergun Caner accepts James White's challenge... Help from Peter Lumpkins

Tom Ascol and James White may have exposed Ergun Caner as an 'ex fake Muslim' but Dr. Caner is not ready to resign from Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary yet!

There are several stages to Ergun Caner's response and attack upon James White.

Ergun Caner's personal attack could consist of many things.

Considering the true things that White has been able to bring up against Caner, the only Christian response he could possibly make is to humbly repent for the errors. Doesn't seem he's going to take that option.

These are some of the things Ergun Caner may bring up in retaliation against James White.

The first of which is personal. Many people do not know about James White's troubled past. The fact that his sister has left Calvinism for Catholicism.

Um, how does the decisions his sister makes have anything to do with James White's ministry or salvation or with vindicating Caner? Let me help you. It doesn't

Please see here:http://thegrandverbalizer19.blogspot.com/2009/11/apologist-james-white-denies-doctrine.html

The fact that James White does not wish to discuss his father's molestation of his sister; and the extremely unloving attitude that James White has shown his sister. Please see here: http://thegrandverbalizer19.blogspot.com/2009/11/apologist-james-white-cold-attitude.html

Um, how does the pain in the White family have anything to do with defending Caner. And if James White has not publicly spoken about his sister's accusations, how does that lessen the value of his work or person. You don't know what he has or has not done for his sister. I am not convinced by her letter because when I read the part where she said had she been raised catholic she would have known to call the police I have to wonder about all the child abuse by catholic clergy? Were they taught to call the police if a parent abused them but accept it if a priest does it? I don't think so. The bottom line is that we don't know what happened and it's none of my or anyone outside of their family's business either!

Ergun Caner's personal attack of James White could consist of questioning his academic background.

There could even be a declaration signed by all disputing factions that no person will be taken seriously in the realm or area of debate until their degrees and qualifications can be taken as credible by the U.S department of education. This could see several debators and apologist most notably James White taken out of the debate arena completely!

What would happen in this scenario is that in general Catholics, Baptist, Mormons, and other demoninations and factions would not debate James White anymore until he got his education first.

The part of this post floored me. What proof does the blogger have that James White does not really have a good doctorate? How is his education is not up to snuff? Just because you disagree with me does not make you uneducated. It's a fallicious statement atheists use against theists all the time. The blogger offers no proof that James White is academically challenged.

Ergun Caner's could point out that James White is moving away from the once saved always saved position. Please see here:http://thegrandverbalizer19.blogspot.com/2009/11/apologist-james-white-denies-doctrine.html

I read the blogger's "proof" and I disagree. Eternal security is one of the 5 main points of Calvinism. And I have never heard a Calvinists deny that people leave the faith and become apostates but this means that they were never part - they were never of the elect. 

Ergun Caner could further point out that James White is slowly moving away from the Biblical Innerancy issue.Please see here: http://thegrandverbalizer19.blogspot.com/2010/01/james-white-backs-away-from-biblical.html

The blogger at this point actually points to a previous post that I myself also blogged months ago. However he got a totally different understanding of what White actually said. He makes the error all Muslim apologists make in  assuming that Christians mean the same thing they do when we say a scripture is inerrant. The Muslim view of inerrancy seems to be more akin to the King James Only proponents. Therefore rather than try to correct all the errors here, I suggest the blogger and all who are interested read The King James Only Controversy by James White. It tells how the Bible was transmitted to us today and why we can trust it to be true. 

Personally I think if I were a Christian I would stick with William Lane Craig, Mike Licona, Norman Geisler and the like. If I were a Christian I would be suspicious of both James White and of Ergun Caner!

After reading a few posts, the blogger does not like James White! I can tell. He does not like Calvinism either. I listen to and enjoy William Lane Craig, Mike Licona, and Norman Geisler. However Christians follow Jesus no one else. Suggesting otherwise is like if I accused the blogger of following Muhammad not Allah. I wonder if the blogger ever looked at what Geisler think of Islam? He throws it into much the same categories as Calvinism. http://mmcelhaney.blogspot.com/2009/05/predestination-in-islam-dr-norman.html

It seems that those who are attacking the credentials of Ergun Caner are not looking into James White self proclaimed 'doctorate' and rather or not he should be called 'Dr' White. Also people may refuse to debate James White in the future as apologist should only want to debate people who have the education and academic profile and not just an ability to speak infront of crowds.

Let us be frank: to be able to speak in front of crowds about high level, technical subjects against "experts" and win, means that you have the education and academic profile. I still would like to see proof for why the blogger would call White's doctorate into question because none is provided. But he beats those who do have doctorates. Does that mean we should call his opponents into question too?

So Peter Lumpkins has called out the James Whiteophites on their inconsistencies when attacking Ergun Caner.

As Peter Lumpkins has pointed out see here:

http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2010/02/dissing-dr-ergun-caner-the-monotonous-mission-of-tom-ascol-and-james-white.html#more

Stay tuned .... will keep you posted (literally) Allah-willing. 

 I looked that Lumpkin's arguments. I had laugh so I would not cry. They are none arguments. They basically amount to: "So what if Caner misrepresented himself as debating good Muslim apologists? You're a stinkin' Calvinist. I never liked you anyway." Great way to win a debate.

Islam and Christianity A Common Word: “Ex Muslim� Dr. Ergun Caner accepts James White's challenge...

A Response to Dr. Ergun Caner, President, Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary

I've done a couple of posts pointing out  Dr. James White's response to the ministry of Ergun Caner (on the right). Caner has attacked Reformed theology and claims to have been a Muslim (although he converted to a Christian as a teenager).  Caner has said that he has debated people that he hasn't debated. White and other Christians have called him on that. because it makes Christians look bad...real bad...like we have to lie to defend the Bible.  White is not wrong to do this. The Bible tells us that we must judge the Church in the Church. We can't allow the name of Christ to be reproach by our actions. Muslims and Atheists are having a field day saying that Christians lie if it furthers are agenda. Christians like James White try to head this off. I wanted to link to his formal response because Dr. White is handling the situation exactly as the Bible tells us we should when Christian brothers disagree. White is often be smudged by being called cruel or unloving but you can't think that when you read his post. Before I end this here are scriptures that show what I'm talking about.

When people were spreading false teaching in Galatia, Paul pulled no punches.

 ⁷You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? ⁸That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. ⁹"A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." ¹⁰I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. ¹¹Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. ¹²As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
 ¹³You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. ¹⁴The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." ¹⁵If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. - Galatians 5:7-15

¹⁵"If your brother sins against you go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. ¹⁶But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' ¹⁷If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. - Matthew 18:15-17

A Response to Dr. Ergun Caner, President, Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary

Dr. Claude Mariottini - Professor of Old Testament: The Name of God: Jehovah

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Dr. Mariottini has posted a great post summarizing everything one needs to know about the name of God. I find this very important information. Too often Christians seem to forget that the Bible has two testaments not just one and the Old Testament is full of great knowledge and real nuggets that we can use to deepen our relationships with God and each other. All the people we read about in the Bible has a relationship with God. One thing that this post reminded me of was the fact that the desire to avoid using the divine name goes back to Judaism where many Jews went out of their way to not even write out the Divine Name - let alone speak it out loud. I've heard of cases of accidentally offending Jews by just reading the Name out loud. In some ways this may be good because it helps us to remember to reverence the name. I enjoy thinking about who God is - His Nature and His Character. Here is a great video and song that I think sheds much light on what the Old Testament is saying.




Dr. Claude Mariottini - Professor of Old Testament: The Name of God: Jehovah