...atheist-about-Christianity-but-agnostic-about-all-other-religions...
Why must you be wrong about everything? Atheism is a statement of belief, and agnosticism is a statement of knowledge, so as far as I know, I'm atheist about all religions and their supernatural claims.
Interesting ways of defining "agnosticism" and it does not seem that everyone agrees with you: "an intellectual doctrine or attitude affirming the uncertainty of all claims to ultimate knowledge." It can't be a statement of knowledge because uncertainty is not knowledge. It's good that Ryan has made up his mind because he did not say that before. Once he said that he was not sure about other religions but he was sure that Christianity was wrong. It's not really progress, but it is something.
now he thinks the Bible has mistakes in it.
And outright falsehoods!
So Ryan always thought that the Bible has had mistakes in it? He certainly thinks they are now. What was the falsehoods?
Consider this: Anderson is arguing that rest and relaxation and connecting with one's family is the same thing as what
I did no such thing, I am aware that the bible makes wild, unsubstantiated supernatural claims. I asked you to demonstrate that what you perceived to be regeneration in your life, that you (mis)identify as biblical/supernatural regeneration, is any different than the regeneration in my life. What I would argue though is that doing things you love can produce the same results that christians get when they think they are being regenerated by the holy spirit. Since you can't demonstrate that the holy Spirit exists, you'll need to demonstrate that what you actually get from your regeneration is different at all, in any way, from what I get when I'm regenerated by doing things I love. (spoiler alert, you don't do that!)
Here is the problems in communicating with Ryan. Arguing that doing the things you love is no different than the same feelings one has from Biblical regeneration is no different from how I summed up Ryan's argument. He just restated what I said. The reason why Ryan is confused is that he has not realized that comparing his definition of regeneration and what the Bible says about it is like trying to compare a potato chip to a microchip.
...notice that Ryan didn't bother to explain how his idea of regeneration is back up by this scripture.
Um... why would I explain why my idea of regeneration is backed up by your scripture? I'm an atheist, remember? I just don't think your "scripturally backed up" version is any different than my version in practice. That's the key, in practice.
Um, my point was for Ryan back up his understanding of regeneration of what the Bible says about regeneration with scripture. How can we even begin to discuss these issues if we can't agree on what the Bible says, I discussed how this worked out in practice. Remember the discussion about Galatians 5? That's what the Bible's regeneration is in practice!
In order to get the happy feelings he got from enjoying what he owes God for any he has to keep doing it
[In order to get the happy feelings he gets from enjoying the things God gave him, Ryan has to keep doing those things.]
What a messy sentence. But I think I get the gist. You realize I have a memory, right? But either way, I'll keep doing these things or other things until I die and I will have as full a life as I possibly can.
For which you owe God. Everything you have.
But that's really besides the point, except that it demonstrates (twice) that you are not a clear thinker. But let me ask, don't you have to keep going to church and/or keep trying to "not sin" to "get the happy feelings"?
Nope. Going to church and fighting your flesh are consequences of regeneration. It's a gift of God. You don't kick it off. You can't continue it. You can't finish it. You can do nothing without Jesus. I thought that you knew what the Bible says, Ryan?
Now come'on [sic] be honest: you can find yourself some where [sic] in verses 19-21. If you are still in those verses and not in verses 22-26 you need to get saved because you are [sic] regenerate yet.
So we're back to Martin Luther being biblically unregenerate?
Who said Martin Luther's life wasn't in verse 22-26? Can Ryan prove that verses 19-21 apply to Martin Luther? Sure would like to see that.
I don't know about you but I think that I have more than shown how the Bible describes regeneration.
Yes, nice job, and good for you, but I that's not what I asked for. What I asked was that you demonstrate how what you, Marcus McElhaney, perceives to be regeneration in your life is any different than what I perceive to be regeneration in my life. You do see the difference, right? I've never met a Christian who could demonstrate this, so don't beat yourself up too badly about it.
I thought showing how Biblical regeneration is more than just enjoying the life God blessed you with would be enough. But if Ryan wants a more personal example how about this one: The Holy Spirit keeps me from cursing out Ryan and keeps me praying for him and having patience with him no matter what ignorant argument he puts forth. He keeps me from using profanity and outright unfounded rudeness. Being regenerate causes me to treat Ryan better than he treats me. How about that? God is truly good.
What had happen' was.....: What does it mean to be "Regenerate"?
Marcus quoted "an intellectual doctrine or attitude affirming the uncertainty of all claims to ultimate KNOWLEDGE." [emphasis mine]
ReplyDeleteThen Marcus said "It can't be a statement of knowledge because uncertainty is not knowledge."
1) Did you notice the usage of the word "Knowledge" in the definition you posted and 2) uncertainty describes the degree of knowledge. Geeze... Let me rephrase this for the learning disabled, "Atheism is a statement about one's beliefs i.e. 'I believe there is no god.', whereas Agnosticism is a statement about the degree of one's knowledge, '.but I cannot be certain if a god exists or not'". What is so hard to grasp about this, other than pretending to not grasp it lets you think you have license to build strawmen.
It's good that Ryan has made up his mind because he did not say that before. Once he said that he was not sure about other religions but he was sure that Christianity was wrong.
I'd like to see that quote and the context.
So Ryan always thought that the Bible has had mistakes in it?
No
The reason why Ryan is confused is that he has not realized that comparing his definition of regeneration and what the Bible says about it is like trying to compare a potato chip to a microchip.
No, remember when I said "I am aware that the bible makes wild, unsubstantiated supernatural claims"? I'm aware that "regeneration" as described in the bible is different from the mundane definition of regeneration. That's sort of the whole point. I maintain that you experience mundane regeneration and willingly confuse it with supernatural "regeneration". My entire point is that they are different (very different because one cannot even be demonstrated to exist!).
Um, my point was for Ryan back up his understanding of regeneration of what the Bible says about regeneration with scripture.
Remember when you agreed that Ephesians was a good summary?
I thought that you knew what the Bible says, Ryan?
I do, but I'm looking at the practical application, and in practice, if you stopped going to church you'd no longer "get the happy feelings". So, in practice, it's the same.
Can Ryan prove that verses 19-21 apply to Martin Luther? Sure would like to see that.
Have you even read "Von den Juden und Ihren Lügen"? "Hate" and "Discord" are part of verses 19-21, no? If you've ever studied Luther and read his works, it's a historical and literary fact that his hatered of Jews waxed rather than waned over the course of his life, culminating with his expulsion of the Jews from Saxony and Brandenburg-Prussia. If it was anyone but Luther, I can't imagine you'd attribute these actions, and a growing hate, to someone experiencing biblical "regeneration".
The Holy Spirit keeps me from cursing out Ryan... He keeps me from using profanity and outright unfounded rudeness.
I'm surprised you'd want to attribute your Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder to the holy spirit?
What is so hard to grasp about this, other than pretending to not grasp it lets you think you have license to build strawmen.
ReplyDeleteRyan, the strawmen are yours. You just hope no one notices them.
I'd like to see that quote and the context.
If you are saying that you never said that or don't think you did, fine. I will just agree that the mistake is mine. It's not worth it to me to find it.
I maintain that you experience mundane regeneration and willingly confuse it with supernatural "regeneration". My entire point is that they are different (very different because one cannot even be demonstrated to exist!).
I gave you a practical example of how my regeneration is different than yours and the Bible underscores how you cannot have it without Christ. You can't prove that I haven't experienced what the Bible promises because you have not.
Remember when you agreed that Ephesians was a good summary?
You have never demonstrated a good understanding of what the Bible says. I still don't think you fully understand what Ephesians 2 says.
I do, but I'm looking at the practical application, and in practice, if you stopped going to church you'd no longer "get the happy feelings". So, in practice, it's the same.
If you think the "happy feeling" is just a feeling and it's bound up because I go to church it shows how much you don't understand what being a Christian is about. If it was only about church, then I'd only feel fulfilled for a couple hours a week. That isn't the type of Joy the Bible promises. You have never experienced that joy and it explains your apostasy.
As for Martin Luther, did you read James Swan's posts or at least listen to the podcasts? I guess not. Here is an example of a straw man - yours: What does whether or not Martin Luther was born again or inspired the Hitler have anything to do with me being born again? Here is a hint: nothing. When it came to Jews, Hitler was clearly wrong. So what? He's dead and he had to give an account to God for what he did in his life. JUST LIKE I DO. JUST LIKE YOU. I think that God's grace is great enough to cover the places in Luther's life where he messed up. That covers Luther. What about you? What is covering you, Ryan? Again, you should be way more concerned about your own salvation than Luther's.
I'm surprised you'd want to attribute your Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder to the holy spirit?
So back to the slander? Well I forgive you. You have not been born-again. you can't help it. Again I have treated you way kinder than you have treated me.
I gave you a practical example of how my regeneration is different than yours...
ReplyDeleteNot swearing at someone who makes you angry??? You gave me a practical example of something that happens everyday without the aid of holy spirits.
When it came to Jews, Hitler was clearly wrong.
Did you mean to say Martin Luther here? It's easy to get them mixed up...
So back to the slander?
It's not slander if it's true. If this blog could be enough to diagnose, you clearly do suffer from Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder.
Again I have treated you way kinder than you have treated me.
And? Plenty of people treat people better than they deserve. Are you suggesting that the only places in the whole world where people get treated better than they deserve is where there are bona fide Born Again True Christians™? Seems unlikely.
Not swearing at someone who makes you angry??? You gave me a practical example of something that happens everyday without the aid of holy spirits.
ReplyDeleteIt is called "self-control" and considering your lack of it, maybe you can use the help from the Holy Spirit (there is only one).
Did you mean to say Martin Luther here? It's easy to get them mixed up.
Simple mistake that I can admit was a mistake. What about you? Can you admit when you make mistakes.
It's not slander if it's true. If this blog could be enough to diagnose, you clearly do suffer from Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder.
Guess you can't. You have no way to diagnose anything and show just how little you know. And by the way instead of worrying about me, you need to spend some time to see how you will deal with your sin.
And? Plenty of people treat people better than they deserve. Are you suggesting that the only places in the whole world where people get treated better than they deserve is where there are bona fide Born Again True Christians™? Seems unlikely.
The fact that you can't treat me better than you think I deserve and I can treat you better than you treat me inspite of that is practical proof of spiritual regeneration because before God changed me, I wouldn't have been capable of it either. By the way "Christian" is what God says it is, not what you think it is.
I have to ask, do you honestly believe that you are all that nice (at least your internet persona)? I've not observed that (although to be fair you're a saint compared to that Brennon kid, Steve Martin or the folks over at Tribalogue, but so was Atilla the Hun). I guess the difference between you and me is I have a thicker skin and I'm not a whiner, so I've never bothered to let your general mean spiritedness bother me. And to be clear, I'm not just pulling this passive-aggressive stuff out of thin air.
ReplyDeleteIt is called "self-control" and considering your lack of it.
You have no idea, I'm actually known for my self control. Sorry.
Simple mistake that I can admit was a mistake. What about you? Can you admit when you make mistakes.
Of course I can. I have often, on this very blog. You have a short memory. But more importantly, can you admit that Martin Luther may not have been "saved" by whatever standard you consider to be valid? I would go off the standard you stated in the previous post, but if you want to change it up, just make it clear that you are.
I couldn't have been capable of [treating someone better than they treat me] either."
Of course you could have, but like I said, I don't think you actually have been as evidenced by this blog, but that's beside the point. In point of fact, and let me quote you, Marcus said on 07/20 at 3:17am "It's important to point out that atheists are capable of doing good things. They can be good parents and loving spouses". You don't seem to follow things through to their logical conclusions. If your alleged, and apparently undemonstrated magical powers of niceness™ were in fact magical, AND Christianity was the only true religion AND biblical regeneration was required for said magical powers of niceness™, then only Christians would have these magical powers of niceness™. And since these magical powers of niceness™ are magical, they would be demonstrably different from regular niceness. I know a group of Muslims in Dar el Salaam that completely invalidate your "practical example".
The thing that tickles me about this though, is you will claim you are a vile sinner unworthy of redemption, when it's convenient for whatever point you are trying to arguing, but then you claim to have magical powers of niceness™ when you think it "demonstrates" the existence of a holy spirit. Good stuff.
But for the record, I will be nothing but nice* going forward, all the while, blaspheming against the holy spirit (or the idea of the holy spirit since holy spirits don't exist). Just to prove the point.
*Saying your blog postings exhibit evidence of a Passive-Aggressive Personality disorder is not an example of me not being nice, it's a simple observation.
I have to ask, do you honestly believe that you are all that nice (at least your internet persona)? I've not observed that (although to be fair you're a saint compared to that Brennon kid, Steve Martin or the folks over at Tribalogue, but so was Atilla the Hun). I guess the difference between you and me is I have a thicker skin and I'm not a whiner, so I've never bothered to let your general mean spiritedness bother me. And to be clear, I'm not just pulling this passive-aggressive stuff out of thin air.
ReplyDeleteI don't think I've been mean-spirited at all. And Yes, I know have been way nicer to you than you have been to me.
You have no idea [of how nice he is], I'm actually known for my self control. Sorry.
I can only go by what you have shown me.
You don't seem to follow things through to their logical conclusions. If your alleged, and apparently undemonstrated magical powers of niceness™ were in fact magical, AND Christianity was the only true religion AND biblical regeneration was required for said magical powers of niceness™, then only Christians would have these magical powers of niceness™. And since these magical powers of niceness™ are magical, they would be demonstrably different from regular niceness. I know a group of Muslims in Dar el Salaam that completely invalidate your "practical example".
Who said that I'm talking about anything "magical"? I'm not. And I was arguing that being nice when others give you no reason to be can be so difficult that it can take God's help to do it. I never said un-Christian people are incapable of being nice to people who disagree with them. I'm merely saying that you need help being nice.
The thing that tickles me about this though, is you will claim you are a vile sinner unworthy of redemption, when it's convenient for whatever point you are trying to arguing, but then you claim to have magical powers of niceness™ when you think it "demonstrates" the existence of a holy spirit. Good stuff.
It's not inconsistent at all. I never claimed anything magical at all. I was merely observing that that you not demonstrated any kindness or niceness at all. I'm saying that being nice inspite of you is because of God not because of anything in me better than you.
But for the record, I will be nothing but nice* going forward, all the while, blaspheming against the holy spirit (or the idea of the holy spirit since holy spirits don't exist). Just to prove the point.
Sure would like to see that. It would be a welcomed change. I follow Christ because I recognize that I need to improve my life. You surely do. Have you ever gone back and read any of the things you have written. ME thinks the reason you think I'm "passive agressive" is because you are projecting your foibles on me. (Not an insult...just an observation).
I don't think I've been mean-spirited at all.
ReplyDeleteOf course you don't. No one ever does.
Who said that I'm talking about anything "magical"? I'm not. And I was arguing that being nice when others give you no reason to be can be so difficult that it can take God's help to do it
Supernatural assistance = magical. Six or one half dozen...
I'm merely saying that you need help being nice.
No, you don't.
I follow Christ because I recognize that I need to improve my life.
I improve my life because I recognize that I need to improve my life. I find it's more efficient to cut out the middle man, imaginary or otherwise.
PS: If I was "passive-aggressive", you'd probably think I was "nicer".
I have to ask, Ryan, do you think you have been mean or unkind towards me? can you truly say you have been nicer to me than I have been to you?
ReplyDeleteRead Romans 5. God does not use magic to improve character.
I was saying that you need help being nice because you are not nice wirhout God. i sure would like to know what i have said that you thought wad so mean compared to what you have said.
I have to ask, Ryan, do you think you have been mean or unkind towards me? can you truly say you have been nicer to me than I have been to you?
ReplyDeleteSometimes, and sometimes.
I was saying that you need help being nice because you are not nice wirhout God.
Sure I am, just not to you, sometimes.
i sure would like to know what i have said that you thought wad so mean compared to what you have said.
The bottom line is that if you thinking being able to be marginally nicer than someone else is evidence of the supernatural, then you've got some more work to do.
And pray tell: When have you been nicer to me than I have been to you?
ReplyDeleteI can't think of a single time you have been nice to me. I've been aggressive in talking to you at times when you have been aggressive yet not stooping to your level. That's not being "passive aggressive". You just aren't intimidating enough to require passive aggressiveness.
I'd say given that I haven't cursed you nor used any profanity at all that I have been more than marginally polite despite your attitude. You don't know how far God has brought me so you aren't able to truly say that my ability to communicate with you hasn't been influenced by God is in a positive way. I'm saying that with God's help it will improve your personality and self-control with your temper so you are not cursing and using profanity.
I can't think of a single time you have been nice to me.
ReplyDeleteNor I you, but I'm honestly not keeping track. Do you want me to ask you how your day's been or tell you that you look nice? Come on Marcus, get real...
I'd say given that I haven't cursed you nor used any profanity at all...
That really has very little if anything to do with "niceness" now does it?
Do you want me to ask you how your day's been or tell you that you look nice? Come on Marcus, get real...
ReplyDeleteNo, I'm expecting no juvenile name-calling or profanity. I expect well-reasoned logic without a condescending tone. I don't expect half-baked attempts at aggressive intimidation with nothing to back it up.
Cursing and rudeness and profanity is the exact opposite of "niceness". It shows an inability to engage in adult discourse. You seem to think yourself above all that but have yet to demonstrate it.
Well you know what they say, you can "expect" in one hand in $h!t in the other, and see which one fills up first.
ReplyDeleteThanks for proving my point.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I have a gut feeling your belief has not improved you, now granted, I don't know where you started from (although you've always been a christian), but it can't be helping, just look at your John Loftus obsession and go from there. If it has actually improved you, then whoa... you were in a really, very, dark bad place (and still mostly are).
ReplyDeleteBut seriously, if you have improved, then it wasn't god since that doesn't exist. Try to figure out what you did or what motivated you to make the improvements on your own and try to capitalize on that.
Personally, I have a gut feeling your belief has not improved you, now granted, I don't know where you started from (although you've always been a christian), but it can't be helping, just look at your John Loftus obsession and go from there. If it has actually improved you, then whoa... you were in a really, very, dark bad place (and still mostly are).
ReplyDeleteI'm not obsessed with John Loftus. But I think you are obsessed with me. You have no blog of your own so you read mine and because you don't do your own, you feel the need to "correct" mine. If it weren't so pathetic, I'd laugh. But instead I'll pray for you. Just an observation and a conclusion. Thank, God for freedom of expression.
No one is born a Christian. You are born into a family that makes you go to church. That's it. My parents' salvation has nothing to do with my own. God isn't going to let me into heaven because of their righteousness. You have to be born-again for yourself. And given that you seem to think you are better than I, we can add "delusional" to your list of problems. If you want to psychoanalyze me, you also open yourself to criticism.
But seriously, if you have improved, then it wasn't god since that doesn't exist. Try to figure out what you did or what motivated you to make the improvements on your own and try to capitalize on that
My life has indeed improved because of Jesus. Given what you you say and how you express it, you can use the help.
You have no blog of your own so you read mine and because you don't do your own...
ReplyDeleteI read a number and this one is for entertainment.
...you also open yourself to criticism.
Knock yourself out champ.
Easy as that is. Paul already did it.
ReplyDeleteSo because you read other people's blogs other than my own that means you are not obsessed? Fine. But how does it follow that I'm obsessed with John Loftus? I read many blogs and I comment on different one. Some I agree with and some I disagree with. I think, Ryan, your viewpoint is hopelessly screwed without Jesus.
ReplyDelete