Response to Brennon Regarding to Comments on Post Re: Ephesians 1

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I really appreciate Brennon giving an Arminan viewpoint to this ongoing discussion. I appreciate his patience and graciousness explaining his comments. My comments are in red and his are in black.

Hey Marcus,

To answer the questions posed to me in your comment:

you have else where agreed that no one can be saved unless they are drawn by the Father (John 6:44)? The answer is right there no one believes unless they are drawn by the Father.

But not everyone that is drawn believes.

Brennon, where does scripture say that God gives draws everyone to the same extent with the same intensity?  Where does the Bible say God draws everyone period? All we can truly say is that all those who believe were drawn by the Father. I think it's going too far to say that even those who reject the call were drawn.

I think we can further say that God does appoint those who believe unto salvation (Acts 13:48).

Acts 13:48 is at the heart of much exegetical debate. Many argue that the passage in Greek is speaking in middle voice, which would cause the passage to read more like "to those who were disposed toward eternal life believed." They could have been prepared beforehand by their study of the OT or by being more sensitive to the calling of the Holy Spirit. But it is glaringly apparent that the passage does not say they were "fore-ordained" or "predestined to" eternal life. The word "tasso" is not once used in Scripture to express eternal predestination of any kind. I don't think you can take Acts 13:48 as even speaking on the doctrine of election unless you approach it with a presupposed interpretation.

I think he's talking about what was done in time at that moment. Those who were moved by the Holy Spirit and did not thrust it away from themselves as those in vs 46 had done (notice the parallelism between these verses), judging themselves unworthy of eternal life. In other words, they heard and the believing and appointment to eternal life were simultaneous. Also, notice what was said about the event afterward. "Now when they had come and gathered the church together, they reported all that God had done with them, and that He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles" (Acts 14:27). So, God opened the door to the Gentiles. That doesn't smack of an irresistible appointment at all.

I agree that God opens the door, but no where does scripture say that we shut the door for ourselves. I looked up a bunch of English translations for Acts 13:48 to see  how many translate the passage to read more like "to those who were disposed toward eternal life believed." Out of the five translations I looked up, none of them translated it the way you suggested as a matter of fact the King James and World English translate it in such a way to convey the idea that those who believe were chosen beforehand.

⁴⁸And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

King James Version (KJV)

⁴⁸And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

English Standard Version (ESV)

The only other place I have heard the translation you suggest was from Steve Gregg in his debate with James White on the radio back in April 2008. Dr White ended that real quick. To be fair, you defended it much better than Mr. Gregg.  Here are the links to that debate.

Day 1 of the Steve Gregg vs. James White Debate 
Day 2 of the Steve Gregg vs. James White Debate
Day 3 of the Steve Gregg vs. James White Debate
Day 4 of the Steve Gregg vs. James White Debate
Day 5 of the Steve Gregg vs. James White Debate

I don't agree that the passage is saying that their or our appointment to eternal life is response to our faith. Being appointed to something does not mean that it's based on the one being appointed.

One cannot elect or appoint oneself but must be nominated and confirmed - which is what God does.

I'm not prescribing that he or she does. I am saying God chose to elect a corporate body of people, those who believe. He elects you, but it is up to the individual to accept this election.

Here is  the question: If a person is only elected personally when they decide to excercise faith according to their own free will, how is that  electing yourself?  It sounds like insurance and you can "opt-out".  I don't think that describes what salvation really is.

We believe because He appointed us for salvation

It's really straining to get this passage to say that.

I know you agree with the scriptures that say that we are unable to choose to follow Christ unless the Father draws us (Not all .people who call themselves Arminians say that, but all Calvinists do). If no one is seeking God and is going astray, then what happens that causes a man or woman to change? You  have said you believe that God gives one enough faith to make a decision. What person in their right mind, who fully understands the Gospel, would be stupid enough to say "No."? Yet intelligent people do that. So you have to ask are those who say "Yes" smarter or better in some way?  More spiritually  sensitive? I used to think so, but now I know better. There is nothing about me better than any unbeliever. Nothing! So why do people choose to reject the very thing p- the only thing - that can save them? Free will, does not really answer the question because before God touches us we all reject Him. We love Him because He first loved us. The only way we can see it is if the son chooses to reveal Himself to us. Jesus said:

²⁷"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. - Matthew 11:27

One big thing about Ephesians 1 is that Paul makes the point that God's chosen was predestined.

We agree on that. What we disagree on is whether it is speaking of individuals or of a corporate group. Paul is speaking to a group and thinking of this predestination and election as in Christ. Those who would be in Christ by faith are predestined to adoption and to be the praise of His glory. It's not just individuals that accomplish this, it's the whole church.

Yes, we largely agree on this point. but disagree where you said. All believers - the church are predestined, but God knows which individuals are in that group. Because no one in that group can join that group on their own, that is why I think Paul was talking about individuals being predestined.


however Paul makes it personal. He says "us", "you" not some amorphous, faceless blob of humanity

"Us" sounds more corporate than "you." God's elect aren't a faceless blob, they are His church, His chosen people. He chose to save those who believers as a group, but it is individuals who believe. It is individuals God draws and shows grace so that they would accept His gift of salvation. Saying this makes election impersonal is just flatly mistaken. I know you got it from James White, but it's just a straw-man.

Brennon, I actually posted the video on my blog several months ago that you are referring to I don't think its a straw man at all. Dr. White was referring to people who go farther to you and reject the idea that we are incapable of choosing Jesus on our own without divine intervention. The thing is White said that God did not just predestion the group but the individuals in that group. He was saying that ignoring that means that one misses the idea that when God made the universe, He knew He was going to make you and had already decreed that at some point you would believe the Gospel and be saved. Not just that believers were going to be saved but Brennon and Marcus and Dan  (for example) were going to be saved. That is why Dr White called it depersonalization to reject that.  I still think you should call in to Dr White's webcast and raise these concerns. He'd welcome discussing it further with you.

Ephesians 1:4 makes it really clear for me that He picked us before he made anything

Not it says He chose us "in Christ." This is Paul's whole train of thought, that election is Christocentric. It does not say He chose us to be in Christ, it says He chose us in Christ. To be in Christ we must believe.


I totally agree that it is Christ-centric! No one is saved apart from being elect in Christ. No Calvinist would disagree with you on that. But I believe the scriptures are further saying that the election was beforehand. 

Let's look at Ephesians 1:4 which says

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

I know we agree that the "him" is Jesus. Is the verse saying that he (The Father) chose Jesus before the foundation  of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight, or is it those chosen in Christ that were chosen before the creation of the world?  It's gotta be talking about us. Jesus was not chosen to be holy and blameless because Jesus always was, is, and will be holy and blameless. This is why I don't understand why you say that the election is only corporate and individually  depends on us positively responding to the Gospel. IF we were predestined before the creation of the world, we choose to believe because we were chosen by him first.

God bless. I hope I was clear.

Thanks  for clarifying your position. I'd like more interaction because I think we are actually getting somewhere. Thanks!