Here is a video of Dr. James White lecturing on the problem that in Arminianism, the idea that God personally, and sovereignly chooses those elected by Him for salvation cannot be held consistently with the Arminian viewpoint.
This really well done!
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Friday, August 28, 2009
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As an Arminian, I obviously take umbrage with just about everything White says.
ReplyDeleteHe starts off by poisoning the well saying "Arminianism is a man-centered faith." That is false. Arminians give all the glory to God in salvation. We do think, as 1 John 2:2 states, that Jesus died for all men and wants all to repent, as 2 Peter 3:9 says.
He then claims we think God makes salvation a "possibility." God saves in response to our faith, that does not somehow make it him and us doing the saving. That is a completely unusual use of language. If a doctor performs an operation on me in response to my consent, that does not somehow make it me and the doctor who performed the operation. No, the doctor and the doctor alone performs the operation even though he performs it in response to my consent. Almost no one would dream of saying the patient performed some of the operation, not even .000000000000001%. It was the doctor 100%. God alone saves us. But he does so in response to our faith. He does so by our faith.
God does not "try" to save people. God performed the work of salvation on the cross 2000 years ago. He commands us to have faith to have that gift applied to us. God does save those who believe, as the scripture states.
"Frightening, sad, depersonalize..." Way to continue poisoning the well.
I'm not an open theist, but I do know that they absolutely do NOT think man is sovereign.
On Romans 8:29-30:
Romans 8: 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Notice, this entire "chain" is based on God's foreknowledge. Just because God foreknows something doesn't mean He has irresistibly decreed it. Those He foreknew He predestined to be like His Son. Not it does not say predestined "TO BE SAVED." No, we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.
Every other statement is a recall to this statement, to be conformed to the image of His Son. We are then called, justified, and ultimately glorified. The calling comes after the predestination to be conformed to the image of His Son, and the predestination comes after the foreknowledge. What does God foreknow? Who will come to Him in faith, as made clear by the context of the book of Romans.
"God does not give all men all things in this universe..."
What does this have to do with anything?
"God justly condemns some..."
For sins HE determined they would commit.
"The elect is a nameless faceless group."
No, the elect are the ones who, in response to the grace of God, accept Him. Then they are elect IN CHRIST.
"If God knows everything...how can man be free?"
ReplyDeleteBecause God's knowledge is based on events that will happen. Free creatures decide to sin, God knows because they will sin, not because God's foreknowledge causes them to sin.
"how do you bring a charge against nameless faces"
Again, White's poisoning of the well causes him to misrepresent the Arminian position.
"God alone justifies..."
What planet does White think Arminians believe any differently?
"Entire character of the gospel changes..."
He doesn't explain why, but I would say God decreeing sin is pretty much not included in the gospel.
"...return to Catholicism..."
I can't believe it took him 14 minutes to get to this. Ha.
"Arminianism leads to universalism."
This is a logical fallacy known as the slippery slope. It's a nice try from White, but when people remain true to the Biblical teachings of Arminius and Wesley, they don't adopt universalism. Otherwise we could say the same about Calvinism leading to Neo-Orthodoxy.
"No grounds for hope..."
White continues with his silly emotional appeal. In Calvinism, for many, there truly is no hope. People created for the express purpose of damnation. In Arminianism there is hope for all.
"If I do this, if I do that, if I remain faithful."
1 Corinthians 15:2
"if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain."
Colossians 1:21-23
"And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard"
"...Then it's you, you, you. God already tried His best...."
What!? First he says it's all about us, and then he brings God into it? He's defeating his own silly argument.
"Dr Craig closer to Catholicism than Calvinism."
If they're more consistent with the Bible than Calvinists, then I'd rather be closer to them.
God bless
I'm so glad that you had so much to say. I want to be clear: I agree with much of White's understanding on this issue and while we may disagree the bottom line is that if your faith is in Jesus Christ, then you are saved. Doesn't matter whether Arminians or Calvinsts are right. We agree on this point. That said, I'd invite you to call the Dividing Line on a Tuesday or Thursday and tell James White directly what you think and why.
ReplyDeleteYou may believe that God gets 100% of the credit for salvation but Norman Geisler and William Lane Craig seem to disagree; and it's those people who say that salvation is limited by human free-will that White is talking about.
Here is the link as to how to contact James White during his webcast. http://www.aomin.org/articles/webcast.html. I'm looking forward to hearing you call in.