The Nine Worlds of Norse Mythology

The Gospel According to Thor; or Thor vs Jesus

Introduction

This is part of what I hope will be an ongoing series on my blog. This will be a continuation of a series of blog posts that compare Jesus to pagan and ancient figures whom skeptics claim at best inspired Christian understanding of Jesus and at worst stole their ideas. I've compared several figures and god to Jesus and found none come close to who the Bible says Jesus is and who I have found Jesus to be myself - a perfect savior.

I think the conclusions that people like James Patrick Holder have reached are correct in that the truth is that because many ancient myths were not written until after the Bible was completed and distributed it is far more likely that they where influenced by Christianity and not the other way around. I think that this is especially true today in fictional myths and stories are in circulation today. I wonder if Jesus' Second Coming is delayed for another 2000 years, will skeptics then think that Christianity was informed and influenced by comics books and film instead of the other way around?

In this Post - Thor

Let's see how Thor (historical myth, Marvel Comics character, and 2011 film) has been related to Christianity. It's important to remember that because there is a longing in the human heart - an incompleteness - It makes sense that people would try to fill the void and their solutions would in some ways be similar to the real solution.

The Myth

A god, named Thor, was worshiped by the Vikings and in northern Europe.Thor was the god of thunder and what the Norse people believed was that lightning storms were the result of Thor's enchanted hammer, Mjölnir, smacking frost giants into submission. He was called upon by people for protection. He had a magic belt, gloves, and aforementioned hammer. He could throw the hammer like a boomerang. One big difference between Norse mythology and the mythology of ancient cultures is that their story has an ending. An apocalyptic event they called Ragnarök - where like the British Sci-Fi series Red Dwarf - most of the characters (all the gods and most of humanity) all die. Thor dies taking out his nemesis - the giant midgard serpent. I admit Thor's personality is definitely entrenched in Viking culture. From what I have read he isn't like Superman at all. He fights because he like to fight not because he has to and not to just protect others. He is vulnerable to magic and can be tricked. Thor was the kind of person that the average Viking strove to become and had their weaknesses.

Marvel Comics

As for the comics, when Stan Lee decided to adapt Thor for Marvel Comics, he not only just took Thor but his whole back story, gave it a modern twist, and in some ways unconsciously Christianized the story. Odin sends Thor to earth to teach him humility. There are several things that were changed that I really liked. For example only worthy people can use the hammer. The Marvel Universe is full of fictional races of beings. By making one such race the Asgardian gods has fueled years of great stories. It was also genius to make Thor a member of the superhero community at Marvel. Thor can fly. In those first stories Thor spoke in Elizabethan English like Shakespeare and the King James Bible. Forsooth. Verily.

Loki is quite a bit different in the comics than he is from mythology. Loki wants to destroy Thor and rule Asgard. He comes off a lot more like Satan than he does in the Norse stories.

2011 Movie

The movie version of Thor definitely matches the Marvel version to a tee. One of the things liked best is the short suggestion that Norse people may had perhaps met Asgardians and thought that they were gods. The other things is like the Comic Books, Thor grows into a hero - someone who cares more about others than he does himself. The movie dealt with issues of sacrifice and parenting. Odin's relationship to Thor is complicated. But in the movie, he truly want what is best for his sons, Asgard, and to avoid war. Sounds familiar?

Jesus

Here is the important point of the post. Jesus is very different from Thor in all of Thor's incarnations. Jesus came to earth voluntarily. Jesus doesn't just wield lightning. The wind, rain, and lightning all obey Jesus at His word. Jesus can do more than protect you from being stepped on by a frost giant, or getting killed by super villain. Jesus not only protects us but save us from ourselves and gives us eternal life. You also should remember that there was a time when Jesus and Thor were in direct competition when the Norse people were Christianized millinia ago. Jesus won. Christianity won so big that Norse mythology was rewritten so that at the end of Ragnarok, the only thing that survived was the great tree, Yggdrasil, - and born within it was a man and woman who remake the world - an And and Eve. The other thing is that Jesus is not like us. He doesn't approach life or circumstances as any of us would. If you were going to make up a messiah, he/she would look a lot more like Thor than Jesus Christ.

I found an interview with Merrill Kaplan, who teaches Norse literature and folklore to college students.

"In its way, Norse mythology is still alive," she said. "I don't mean paganism is alive, although there are people who have tried to revive rituals regarding these stories. But there has never been a point at which no one has been interested in this stuff.

"When the age of Norse paganism closed in history," she said, "the age of geeks opened."

The age of geeks?

Kaplan laughed, explaining that most of what we know about Norse mythology comes from monks and Christian writers who weren't worshipping these gods, but were just "geeking out" about how "cool" the stories were.

"Some of them were men in monasteries, professional men of the clergy, who thought these stories were really cool," she said. "It's the age of geeks that kept Norse myth alive. And I guess it's what continues to keep it alive."

Kaplan said there are also influences from Norse mythology that most people don't even realize. For example, "Thursday" derives from "Thor's Day."

"Somebody is always naming something after a Norse god or goddess or something in the myths," she said, citing Norwegian oil platforms called Thor and Odin. "In a way, the story of Norse mythology is still going on."

Concluding Remark

The stories are good and fun to read for sure. And Thor lives on in Comic Books but we must not forget that Jesus is a better savior than Thor could ever be.

References

THORSDAY: The Mythological Versus the Marvel THOR
Ragnarok - Wikipedia
Thor, Jesus and the Old Testament | HILLS BIBLE CHURCH BLOG
The Religious Affiliation of Comic Book Character - Thor

Related articles

• GODSTUFF: "Thor" and discovering God(s) in Marvel(ous) places (cathleenfalsani.com)
• Odin, Thor, and our Christianized paganism (geneveith.com)
• 'Thor's' Kenneth Branagh: We are 'challenged to be absolutely cosmic' (herocomplex.latimes.com)
• Review: Thor: Trials of Loki by Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa and Sebastian Fiumara (csilibrarian.wordpress.com)
• Movie Review: Thor (all-things-andy-gavin.com)

Facepalm of the Day #34 - Racists Totally Freak Out Over Idris Elba Playing Norse God in 'Thor' - ComicsAlliance | Comics culture, news, humor, commentary, and reviews

I want to join Comics Alliance on their condemnation of  truly ignorant folks who want  to protest against casting a Black man as a Norse god in the upcoming Thor movie!  If any idea deserves a Facepalm this is definitely one of them. The piece is so fantastic, I want to just annotate it and add some other ideas to piggy back off a truly great post. My comments are in red.

Did you know that the totally made-up-by-medieval-drunks gods of Norse mythology were all white? Literally none of them were African. We didn't know that, but thanks to the prodigious efforts of the Council of Conservative Citizens and their friends at Boycott-Thor.com, the truth has been revealed: Heimdall, Sentry of Asgard, was white and Idris Elba, the English actor hired to portray Heimdall in Marvel Studios' Thor, is black! BLACK!

A real tragedy is that Idris Elba is a really good actor who seems to be able play many roles very different from himself. I mean in all the American roles he has done, I thought he was born and raised in the United States not the UK. The thing is recall that Anthony Hopkins was hired to play Odin, partly because of his "Englishness" (I think, given in America we think kings should have a British accent), which Idris Elba has in his real life and bearing!!!!  I am expecting him to be great in the role.

The CCC's unhappiness with Elba's appearance in Thor jibes with the material on its Statement of Principles page, where they assert that "the United States is a European country and that Americans are part of the European people... that the American people and government should remain European in their composition and character," and thus "oppose all efforts to mix the races of mankind... to destroy or denigrate the European-American heritage, including the heritage of the Southern people, and to force the integration of the races." The Statement also makes plain the organization's desire for the United States to be extremely Christian, curmudgeonly, and for its citizens to appear as hobbit-like as possible. 

"Principles"? Truly sad. The really stupid part is the statement  that said the United States is a European country and that Americans are part of the European people... that the American people and government should remain European in their composition and character," and thus "oppose all efforts to mix the races of mankind... to destroy or denigrate the European-American heritage, including the heritage of the Southern people, and to force the integration of the races." I have truly not heard many things more stupid than this.  Hadn't they heard: Europe is not a single nation, culture,  Besides, although Christianity is definitely true, it isn't currently the best description of America. And about "hobbit-like" appearance, the article's author has a point.

As part of its tireless efforts to those ends, the CCC -- recognized as a genuine hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center -- wrote on its website that Marvel has "declared war on Norse mythology" with "an insulting multi-cultural makeover." Not a fan of Marvel in general, the CCC added that the publisher already "attacks conservative values" and "now mythological gods must be re-invented with black skin."

I'm amazed that they think that all European ideas have no blackness. It has been already said that perhaps some of the knights from medieval times were black and let's not forget that all the oldest images and pictures of Jesus and his contemporaries were depicted with dark skin. 

Marvel is similarly criticized on the politically conservative Boycott-Thor.com, whose motto is "Keep social engineering out of European mythology." Apparently unaware that Marvel orchestrated an elaborate and embarrassing plotline by which Spider-Man and his wife made a deal with the devil to erase their marriage from memory rather than see the iconic superhero suffer the destructive liberal indignity of divorce, Boycott-Thor.com put forth the following indictment of the publisher:

Marvel is headed by radical left-wingers who insert their ideologies and agendas into their comic books and movies.

In February 2010, the TEA Party movement was viciously attacked in an issue of Captain America. Marvel editor-in-chief Joe Qesada publicly defended the issue.

Marvel creator and front man Stan "Lee" Lieber is a notorious left-winger and financier of left-wing political candidates.

I find the accusations truly horrendous that people really think that way, especially about the Captain America remark. These guys really seem to think censorship is a good idea.

Elsewhere on the site, the Boycott-Thor.com author submitted that the reason "movies fail" is, "according [to] the experts," because of bad word-of-mouth. A Facebook page has been set up to help spread those bad words, and boasts a shocking 155-person "Like" count, but only a few comments.

"What is needed is a school campaign to get White kids to boycott everything that comes out of Marvel Studios," wrote a human being called Annis Isbell. Another fan of the boycott, James Hick wrote, "Need to try and get black sepratists in on this to. Let them know that marvel is trying to negate and down play their racial culture & heritage and saying by default blacks are cultureless unless they imbrace the white mans culture. That would sit a black back lash," which we suppose is an almost utopian sentiment for someone whose Facebook profile pic is the Confederate flag. 

All I can say is...those are terrible thoughts!

For his part, Idris Elba has playfully acknowledged the obvious incongruity between his complexion and what is conventionally thought to be the true appearance of a made-up mythological god who never existed. Best known for his superlative performance as Stringer Bell in HBO's The Wire and for his appearances on NBC's The Office (but identified by the CCC as "Hip Hop DJ Elba"), the performer told the UK's TV Times:

"There has been a big debate about it: can a black man play a Nordic character?" he told TV Times. "Hang about, Thor's mythical, right? Thor has a hammer that flies to him when he clicks his fingers. That's OK, but the colour of my skin is wrong? "I was cast in Thor and I'm cast as a Nordic god," he said. "If you know anything about the Nords, they don't look like me but there you go. I think that's a sign of the times for the future. I think we will see multi-level casting. I think we will see that, and I think that's good."

Kudos to Elba! Very classy attitude. Me? I don't think the information is funny. 

Obviously a fierce Googlebater, the Boycott-Thor author has kept track of his site's mentions in the media, and will no doubt read this ComicsAlliance post as well. He or she accuses our friends at Spinoff Online, who also covered this story, of "childish name-calling like 'racist,'" even though Spinoff writer Kevin Melrose's post is admirably neutral in its presentation of the facts and does not include the word "racist."

The rest of the world needs to know that there is still stupidity like theirs.I mean don't hide the stupid. We need to keep in mind that it is still with us.

Our post will not be so neutral.

Mine Neither

You people at the Council of Conservative Citizens and Boycott-Thor.com are racists. And because you believe that "racist" is a baseless term thrown out by "left-wingers" who "can't win based on the facts," I will explain precisely why you are racists, and I will do with the most relentless logic possible.

Yup, the Council of Conservative Citizens and Boycott-Thor.com are indeed racists. It's not pejorative. It is a fact.

The reason Kenneth Branagh cast Stringer Bell as Heimdall in Thor is because that is awesome. Did you see the Thor trailer? Heimdall is awesome!

Heimdall is indeed awesome. Given that Heimdall is supposed to be Asgard's first line of defense against all manners of evil force bent on its destruction, an actor portraying such a character should be huge and  look like a frost giant would think twice before challenging him. Have you seen Elba? He's not a little dude. And he can be intimidating when he wants to be. Elba is awesome. That is why he got the role.

Along similar lines, the reason Mark Millar and Byran Hitch cast Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury in The Ultimates is because that was awesome. Have you read The Ultimates? Have you seen Samuel L. Jackson in the Iron Man movies? He is awesome!

Agreed!!! And a very valid point. But it does bring up a very interesting point. Originally in the comic books, Fury was a white guy. I've heard very little commotion about the change in the comics or in most media in making Fury a black man now. Also in addition there didn't seem to be an issue that Kingpin was played by a black man in the Daredevil movie although the character is white in the comic books. However a few months ago when Beyonce' said she wanted to play Wonder Woman, people had problems with that. And when people said a black actor should play the new Spider-man there was a backlash. People disagreed, including myself. Why? For my part, Spider-man and Wonder Woman are very different from Nick Fury and the Kingpin in that they are way more iconic and our cultural identification with them is much stronger than with Fury or the Kingpin. In addition when their races were changed, their whole back stories  and backgrounds were changed almost that they were other characters - qualitatively - almost completely. From this point of view I have no problem with Heimdall being black. Marvel has greatly changed the Norse myths in so many way, why not change that too?  Honestly when you look at the Thor myths, Thor is kind of a jerk, not a hero as he is in the comic books - noble and courageous.

These are two stellar examples of demonstrable awesomeness, and, as such, they can only be refuted by the poisoned minds of hateful racists. While you are denying yourself what's sure to be a joyous popcorn epic in Thor and falling on the sword for the most socially, economically and politically dominant ethnicity in the world and their ridiculous ancient gods, we will be watching Chris Hemsworth (an Australian) and Idris Elba (an Englishman) bring to life one of the great American superheroes created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby (JEWS!)

GAME SET AND MATCH!!!!! Ouch!!! QED!!!! You can stick a fork in that one! IT is done!

To adapt a quote from one of white culture's most celebrated and completely fake, totally made-up heroes, Buzz Lightyear: You are sad, strange little men, and you have our pity.

Way to put the nail in the coffin on a very silly arugment. I realize that some people might think that answering such foolishness is a waste. It isn't. First, such stupidity must be shown for what it is - stupid. We need to remember electing Obama President of the United States did not fix racism in this country Second, it bring up way more weightier issues. For example, earliest iconography of Jesus clearly show darker skin, and then since the Italian Renaisssance most people think Jesus had blond hair and blue eyes. It goes to what to do you think of the God you worship. I'm not arguing that Jesus was black.I don't know. No one knows what his skin color was but I think it's safe to bet against Jesus looking Aryan because the people who live in the Middle East do not look that way. Given that as a Christian I believe Jesus came in human flesh and lived as one of us for 33 years, it becomes a problem for non-White people if you want us to believe that white people is better than any other race of people. By-and-large, I think most American have grown past consciously thinking that and the Council of Conservative Citizens missed the memo.

[Via Spinoff Online]

Racists Totally Freak Out Over Idris Elba Playing Norse God in 'Thor' - ComicsAlliance | Comics culture, news, humor, commentary, and reviews

Iliad Vs Bible

I found an interesting post on the internet where the writer seems to think that the Illiad parallels the Bible way too closely. I decided to write against each point raised. My comments are in blue.

I've been reading - well, listening to the audiobook of while commuting - The Iliad this week. The Biblical parallels are striking, and I'm wondering whether there's really a distinction here at all. Dig it:

* Zeus, son of Cronos, "keeps his gifts to men in two great barrels, one for miseries, one for blessings", and hands them out in response to prayers. Obvious Jehovah/Jesus parallel. When Zeus is in a cranky mood, watch out, he's going to stomp you like the OT Jehovah. Murder In Peckham stuff. But when he's feeling loving, hoo-boy, it's new testament time!

This is an over-simplification of the character of the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible does not relate to people based on just responding to their actions - prayers and sacrifices.  The God of the Bible relates to people on His own terms not ours.

* Zeus/Cronos has a whole bunch of lesser deities in wings and flowing robes wandering around doing his bidding. Now I know you're going to quibble and tell me angels aren't "lesser deities", but if you can distinguish the difference you're doing better than me. Heck, Wtf Are Angels?

Angels are not deities. They are not gods. They do God's bidding. His messengers. They are spirits...not ghosts, but an entirely  different class of being. Equating angels to lesser deities like the Olympian gods shows he knows nothing about what the Bible teaches about angels.

* If you want to receive favors from Zeus, you have to show up to the usual rituals. Sure, they sacrificed goats and bulls rather than donating pocket change, but the priest game is exactly the same.

In the Bible, sacrifices are offered to God to worship Him for who he is not to get anything from Him. He deserves our worship. No way to equate the two.

* Mortals have free will right up until the time Zeus and friends decide to screw around with fate, whereupon the usual gaggle of miracles and melodramas beset the puny humans. As per any other religion it looks a lot more like humans using gods as excuses for natural disasters and diplomatic lapses than it does the deep planning of superhuman intelligences.

The Bible does not teach that we have free will or that God has to do anything we want the way we want Him to do it. The Bible teaches that God has intervened in time to put every human being who has ever lived and will ever lived in the context that will accomplish the purpose He has...not what we want.

More to come, but you get the point. The game's the same, only the players change.

I sure hope he does  better than this.

There's an analogy with the Hindu patheon, too, I think (my ignorance shames me). My limted understanding of the Hindu faith(s) is that there is the cosmic soap-opera style stuff with the extra arms and suprising skin colours and so on, much in the style of the Iliad, but that's really incidental to the serious business of God who is one supereme deity.

I think that is dangerous to think that you can draw really close parallels with classical Hinduism. From what I've studied it just doesn't measure up well. I think you can make a case for Olympian gods paralleling the gods of Egypt because the Greek stole much of their ideas, science, and technology from Egypt. And the Romans got much of their culture from the Greeks.

Interestingly, some classical Greek writers distinguish between the gods and God, too. -- I asked my Latin teacher about this one, and she had said the distinction is something translators typically introduce, but not one present in the original writing. Also note that Zeus is not actually in charge, beyond being the strongest and so first among equals. There are a few powerful Gods - Zeus, Poseidon, Athena, Apollo - who are comparable in strength and so will not go up against each other directly, but instead act through deception.

There is no analogy to this in Christianity. God is one being and alone. No one is greater than He. No one can challenge Him.

Contention alert: I'd also suggest that they way many Catholics behave towards the Saints is very similar to the treatment that "minor deities" get in other systems. In fact, some 'local saints' are actually older gods.

I agree with this statement because I know that is how Voodoo and Catholicism coexist in a lot of cultures as well as some South American cultures. This is how a lot cultures were Christianized but that's not  how Christianity as we know it developed but how it has affected other cultures.

Does anyone know how the various Norse gods were supposed to relate to one another? Is Odin (after whom the farm upon which I grew up was named, insignificantly enough) God, while Thor and the rest are merely gods, or what?

Odin and Thor's relationship is close to the relationship of Zeus and say like Apollo - father and son - same as on human standards.

In a nutshell, the ancient greek and ancient norse mythoses are so similar there's no question of their having a common origin. The basic layout of gods is extremely similar - Zeus/Odin, Prometheus/Loki, Apollo/Balder, Hermes/Hermod, and so on. Both explain the origin of the Gods through the lineage of still more fantastic creatures - Gaia and her Titans for the Greeks, and Ymir and his Frost Giants for the Norse.

I don't see how they can be completely common.  Norse gods come from the northern Europe and the Olympians from the Mediterranean.

Odin/Zeus aren't necessarily capital-G God to the lesser gods, but they're certainly the fathers and kings of their respective pantheons. Both are the offspring of the elder Gods, who are themselves the result of intercourse between heaven and earth. Mortals are created by miscegenation, and generally considered either recreational fun or an unfortunate nuisance depending on the gods' moods.

Completely unlike the Bible.

The apparent distinction between these mythoses and the judaic God(s) is the notion that the original creator of the universe, rather than her/his creatures, constructs and is vitally concerned with the affairs of humans. In other words, monotheism. But then we have angels and seraphim and messiahs and devils and so on from the woodwork, and it gets higgledy-piggledy again. --Peter Merel

This is a major distinction. And the Judeo-Christian God is one god - not several - angels and seraphim and messiahs and devils are no where on the same level and they are completely subservient to God. He calls the shots. 

Actually gods mucking around with people's fates isn't really the way Greeks looked at things. Give me some time to come back to this, because there's a very interesting parallel to be made there.

The Bible does say that God is in control of all's fate. There is nothing that He doesn't know. There is a predetermination before the universe is even created. It's not mucking around....He is the source and deserves all praise and worship.

Iliad Vs Bible

Hijacked By Jesus - Television Tropes & Idioms

Whether or not you are a follower of Jesus Christ, you must concede that Jesus and Christians have taught about him for 2000 years have dominated western civilization. This is an interesting article about how many myths have been changed - "christianized".

Whenever a fictional story involves a non-Christian mythology, a western adaptation will emphasize the elements most familiar to followers of Christianity. At times, they will be totally rewritten to turn all of the members of the religion into direct analogues of Christian figures.

I like the article and I agree. I think that Christianity has influenced our thinking of everything even how we think of the Greco-Roman, Hindu, Egyptian, and Norse gods. The article is well done. Take a look.

Hijacked By Jesus - Television Tropes & Idioms