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Are We Born Guilty Of Sin?

How Did the Fall Affect Humanity?

High Five of the Day - Calvinistic "Quotes": Man's idolatrous estimation of his self as

This is an awesome quote:

Nothing quite reveals man's idolatrous estimation of his self as being preeminent then his acceptance of Christ dying for sins of others while he refuses to accept that men should die for their own sins!

~ Julius Mickel

This point is what separates born-again Christians from all other people - it is the recognition that salvation is not because we deserve it - we deserve death (physical death and eternal separation from God) because of our sins. Jesus saved us from the consequences of what we did, do, and will do.

Calvinistic "Quotes": Man's idolatrous estimation of his self as

FacePalm of the Day - Debunking Christianity: Jesus as a Huge Colony of Bacteria: Unclean!

I'm beginning to wonder if Harry McCall really believes the crap he posts or if he is just trying to make arguments to fool the gullible. Here is a case in point: I noticed that this post was put up on Debunking Christianity multiple times today, but taken down. It's short but from the piece of it I could see in my RSS feed, I thought that perhaps he or someone else wised up and thought better than post it. I was wrong because it showed up again a final time.  Look at this level of "argumentation".

Trillions of bacteria live in our bodies. They outnumber our human cells, 10 to 1. So who’s in charge? What are we? Maybe you thought your body was a noble castle poised against the onslaughts and invasions of the world. Well, think again. It turns out, we are the world. Our bodies are loaded with a jungle of microbial life, inside and out, that is essential to healthy life. New science has found ten times as many bacteria cells as human cells in and on the human body. A load of microbes that work with us from the moment of birth in all kinds of key ways.
Listen to this fascinating discovery on NPR .
(It's claimed Jesus was not tainted by Original Sin, however - based on modern facts - he sure was during vaginal birth!) 

Who said that unlike us Jesus did not have trillion of bacteria in our bodies? I see absolutely no reason to make that assertion especially given that our lives are possible by that bacteria. The only way I can see to save him from a complete faceplant is to assume that he is equating bacteria and germs with sin. Assuming that I'll give McCall a pass and assume ignorance instead of stupidity. No where does the Bible equate being clean with being sinless. Also you have trillions of bacteria inside and outside your body regardlessly of how much you bathe and clean yourself. "Clean" and "unclean" in the Mosaic laws was about ceremonial issues not sin. If bathing was enough to expatiate sin, then there would have been no need for blood sacrifices. Another point McCall fails to consider is that a person is exposed to a load of microbes and bacteria even before birth and none of this has anything to do with sin. The Bible tells us that we are sinners even before physical birth.

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. - Psalm 51:5

When we say Jesus was sinless we mean that He was not he was not a sinner not that his body was germless. Don't forget what Jesus said:

¹⁰ Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. ¹¹ What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”

¹² Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”
¹³ He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. - Matthew 15:10-13


Debunking Christianity: Jesus as a Huge Colony of Bacteria: Unclean!

FacePalm of the Day #143 - Misrepresenting Adam and Eve Again

Let's think about this for a moment. You can argue all you want that Adam and Eve did not exist. However once you make an argument like a following, you'd better get what the Bible says correct. John Loftus never seems to be able to do that. Here is a case in point.

Before eating the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve either knew that disobeying God was evil or they didn’t. If they didn’t, then they can’t be blamed for disobeying him. If they did, then they already possessed the knowledge that God had forbidden. Either way, God could not justly banish them from Eden. (Adduced by Richard R. La Croix.) Link.

Adam knew that disobeying God was wrong. He knew shouldn't do it. You don't need to understand a command to obey it. Would you take that excuse from a child? Why would anyone think that it would fly ever? No way would my parents buy that. No parent would. Go back and read Genesis 3. The knowledge was not forbidden - eating the fruit was.

Debunking Christianity: Adam and Eve Again

Bring it #1: Demonstrate that there is no Original Sin

I'm starting a new series of posts. A lot of people do not think its correct to use the Bible to discuss Christian concepts and theology. I disagree. So I've decided to create a series of blog posts to give skeptics and atheists an opportunity to make their best case against key Biblical concepts. If you decide to take me up on my challenge, be prepared to defend your position because I will respond. I believe the Bible is true because it stand up to scrutiny and challenge. So go ahead and take your best shot.

For this first post let us deal with something fundamental: Is there such thing as original sin?

Feel free to defend or attack the theology in the comments. Use science. Use the Bible. Use philosophy. Use History. Use whatever evidence you think is relevant to proving your point. 

Bring it.

FacePalm of the Day #85 - Debunking Christianity: Christology Rests Upon a Mistake

There has been guest post on Debunking Christianity that needs a response because it rest on a fundamental assertion that can't be substantiated

Christology rests upon a mistake. This is a simple statement that could be easily understood by much of the various Christian denominations. As so it means the invalidity of the Christian Faith since it rests upon its own Christology.

Christology or how and why Jesus saves is based upon the idea that the Genesis account of Creation is real. However, much of Christendom apart from conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists knows how the universe began and that evolution is factual. They also affirm that the Genesis account of the Creation and Adam and Eve are mythological. It is unlikely for example that plants were created a day before the sun, moon and stars as in presented in Genesis. Also there is plenty of fossil and genetic evidence that humankind has been about hundreds of thousands of years.

Since the Creation and the Fall are mythological and not literal accounts there is no basis to assume there is original sin. Christology is based upon original sin. The death of Jesus upon the cross is a sacrifice (propitiation) for that sin. Paul argues it, “As in Adam all have sinned and died so in Christ all are made alive.” Since there was no Adam, Eve, Eden, or Fall then there is no basis for a need of salvation. Jesus did not die for your sins. He died because of his teachings.

The author attacks the fundamental truth that Jesus' life, sacrifice, and redemption is the means of salvation from sin and death by arguing that the story of Genesis is wrong because there was no Adam and no original sin. The author concludes that there is no need of propitiation because there is no original sin. I see two problems with his line of reasoning: 1. If sin is defined as the propensity and inability to obey God and live up to the standards God has set for us then our need for salvation really hasn't much to do with Adam or Eve because each and everyone of us have more than enough sin to deserve punishment on our own without even looking at Adam or Eve,  2. Who says that Genesis is incorrect?

I don't think that Adam and Eve are mythological at all. Is the earth billions of years old? Yup. Does the Bible say it's not billions of years old? Nope. I suggest that anyone has a problem with the order of Creation or the meaning of "Yom:" - translated "days" - they should look up the work of  Dr Hugh Ross and his ministry at Reasons to Believe. I've posted a few resources from him on this blog here.  I don't agree with everything but I think he is right that the Earth is extremely more than 6000 years old and I think he gives good reasons for thinking it from science and scripture. As for Original Sin, given that the Bible does not give us enough information to figure out how long ago Creation, Eden, and Noah's Ark happened, but that does not mean that they didn't happen.

Every honest person has to admit that we are sinners. We have all told at least one lie. We have all failed to live up to what is right. We have hurt other people. We have not done all the good we could have done.  Do we really think that we can just ignore that? Do we really think we are not accountable for the evil we have done? Do we really think that we don't owe? Do we not deserve judgment? We also have to agree that we have done wrong some of those times not intending to do it and sometimes it was voluntary.

²¹ So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. ²² For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; ²³ but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. ²⁴ What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? ²⁵ Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
   So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.- Romans 7:21-25

Without Jesus what do you have? What is your propitiation? I agree that Jesus did indeed die for His teachings. What did Jesus teach? Jesus said:

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” - John 8:24

²⁵ Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; ²⁶ and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” - John 11:25-26


³² And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” ³³ He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.- John 12:32-33

Also let us not forget that when the angel Gabriel announced Jesus' birth to His mother Mary, Jesus' purpose is clearly spelled out!

³⁵ The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. ³⁶ Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. ³⁷ For no word from God will ever fail.” - Luke 1:35-37

Without Jesus you are in your sins! Come to Him so you can be acquitted and avoid the punishments you deserve. You won't be declared "Innocent" but "Not Guilty!" That is the meaning of propitiation.

 ⁵ Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.”  ⁶ But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) ⁷ “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). ⁸ But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: ⁹ If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. ¹⁰ For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. ¹¹ As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” ¹² For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, ¹³ for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” - Romans 10:5-13

Debunking Christianity: Christology Rests Upon a Mistake

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