Is Jesus God in the Gospel of Mark?

Does it Make Sense to Trust in Jesus?

Update #2 - Licona & Martin: Did Jesus Believe He Was Divine? - Apologetics 315

Brian Auten has posted a debate between Dr Michael Licona and Dr Dale Martin regarding whether or not Jesus considered himself divine. I agree with Dr Licona that Jesus taught that he was divine and that his followers knew he was too. The deity of Christ is an important point and a defining part of Christianity. Christianity itself revolves around who Jesus is and what he did and what he taught. Without Jesus, there is no Christianity. I am amazed that Dr Martin can claim to believe in the essential doctrines of Christianity yet reject the Bible as foundational for those beliefs.


Licona & Martin: Did Jesus Believe He Was Divine? - Apologetics 315

Update: Dr James White has reviewed the debate on the past two episodes of his webcast.. He wrote

...as there is so much that could be observed, but instead stuck to our review of the Licona/Martin dialogue on whether Jesus recognized His own deity. I think this is an important exercise in examining the presuppositions of what is truly "worldly wisdom." 

Listen to the webcast at the following links:

Yesterday on the Dividing Line

Continuation of Licona/Martin Dialogue on the Deity of Jesus on Today's DL

Today on a Special Friday Morning Dividing Line

Answering Muslims: Where Did Jesus Say, "I Am God, Worship Me"? #2

Samuel Green offers a short rebuttal to the often used polemic many Muslims and anti-Trinitarians raise against Christianity: "Jesus never said 'I am God, Worship me!'" Green writes

What is it that ultimately gets him crucified? It is his claim to be the divine man of Daniel 7 who is to be worshipped. The Jewish leaders again understand exactly what he is saying and call it blasphemy. So Jesus actually does say, "I am God worship me"; he just uses the language of the prophets to say it.

If we want to understand Jesus we must learn his language. I am not saying we must learn Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, though that is an excellent thing to do. Instead I am saying that we must know the titles, the concepts and expectations of the prophets who were before Jesus, because it is with these words that Jesus speaks and invites us to understand him.

 Read the whole post at the following link.

Answering Muslims: Where Did Jesus Say, "I Am God, Worship Me"? #2

The Muslim Use of the Errant Unitarianism of Sir Anthony Buzzard

Dr James White has written a post on how some Muslims use the Unitarianism of Sir Anthony Buzzard to discredit Christianity. They seem to think that they have found a Christian who denies the Trinity therefore Trinitarians are wrong. Rather an irrational argument but they seem to think it flies. It more like crashes and burns. A three-part video is embedded in the post of a two-on-two debate between James White and Dr Michael Brown against Anthony Buzzard and another man who reject Jesus as God and Messiah. Also Dr White posts another video by a Muslim on YouTube who attacks Dr White and Christianity on the basis of the Trinity.

Dr White writes:

If one does not assume unitarianism my comments are, well, obvious. Only by cutting, editing, and ignoring context, can Sir Anthony attempt to create confusion and hence contradiction. He refuses to allow for the distinction between being and person, and on the basis of that refusal, asserts contradiction on my part. Yet, my very definition is based upon the distinction in usage and referent for the terms "being" and "person". Hence, to reject part of my definition, import a different definition, and on that basis accuse me of contradiction is irrational. We have seen this error on Sir Anthony's part many times. But what is MuslimByChoice's excuse this time? He is citing a man who believes Jesus died and rose again. He believes Jesus is properly called the Son of God (in a much higher sense than Islam can possibly allow) and hence is someone who rejects the inspiration of the Qur'an and the prophethood of Mohammed. It is clear once again that MuslimByChoice chooses to use any source, no matter how inconsistent with Islamic doctrine, teaching, or history, as long as it looks like it is contradictory to the Trinity. Isn't it interesting to see how dependent Muslims are upon enemies of the Christian faith, like Bart Ehrman, for example? Rejection of biblical teaching makes strange bedfellows, to be sure!

Follow the link at the end to see the videos.

The Muslim Use of the Errant Unitarianism of Sir Anthony Buzzard

Answering Muslims: James White vs. Abdullah Kunde: "Can God Become a Man?"

The video for the debate on the incarnation between James White and Abdullah Kunde is now posted!!!




Answering Muslims: James White vs. Abdullah Kunde: "Can God Become a Man?"

The Deity of Christ/Trinity Debate with Patrick Navas on Chris Date's Theopologetics Podcast

A debate on Chris Date's Theopologetics Podcasts regarding the Deity of Christ and the Trinity between James White and Patrick Navas. It's amazing to me that this is even still a point of debate. I think the New Testament clearly spells out who Jesus is and why He is able to be the perfect sacrifice atoning for the sins of those who put their faith in Him. No mere man can do that, but a man - a kinsman redeemer - to obey God where Adam (and we) fail to obey God. I'm just glad that a capable scholar like Dr James White is used of God when th.is subject invariably comes. Of Course this is where Christianity gets attacked a lot - by Islam, Atheism, Mormonism, and any other competing ideology. Follow the link to James White's blog below to get to the links to hear the debate.

The Deity of Christ/Trinity Debate with Patrick Navas on Chris Date's Theopologetics Podcast

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• "God Became Man that Man Might Become God" (biblethumpingliberal.com)
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• The Deity of Jesus Christ: By Cooper Abrams (chaplaingary.wordpress.com)
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Answering Muslims: Is Jesus God?

Here is a ( debate between Diaa Mohamed from mypeace.com.au) and Samuel Green from October 25, 2011 at the University of Techonology Sydney.




Answering Muslims: Is Jesus God?

Bring it #2: Does the Bible Teaches the Deity of Christ?

A lot of people do not think its correct to use the Bible to discuss Christian concepts and theology. I disagree. So I've decided to create a series of blog posts to give skeptics and atheists an opportunity to make their best case against key Biblical concepts. If you decide to take me up on my challenge, be prepared to defend your position because I will respond. I believe the Bible is true because it stand up to scrutiny and challenge. So go ahead and take your best shot.

For this first post let us deal with something fundamental:  Does the Bible Teaches the Deity of Christ?

Feel free to defend or attack the theology in the comments. Use science. Use the Bible. Use philosophy. Use History. Use whatever evidence you think is relevant to proving your point. 

Bring it.

Further Responses to "Christian" Scholar Laurence Brown by Dr James White

Last week, Dr James White began reviewing a discussion by Laurence Brown on the Islamic Apologetic' show, The Deen Show. Here is the show that Dr White is responding to.






Dr Brown is arguing that Jesus is not God and that there is no Trinity. He's wrong. You can hear the first part of the response here and the second part over here. Here is the third part of the response at this link.

Tuesday on the Dividing Line: Further Responses to "Christian" Scholar Laurence Brown

What Really Happened at Nicea?

Here is a great article from Dr. James White that explains what happened at the Council of Nicea.  So many people erroneously conclude that the council met to set the canon - what books would be included or excluded from the Bible. This is not what the members talked about. We actually know a lot about what was discussed there and who attended. Read the article.

What Really Happened at Nicea?

Answering Muslims: Why Did Jesus Say, "The Father Is Greater Than I"?

Sam Shamoun answers one of the most frequently questions Muslims ask, "Why did Jesus say 'The Father is greater than I.'?"




Answering Muslims: Why Did Jesus Say, "The Father Is Greater Than I"?

Calvinistic Cartoons: Listen to Morgan

More hilarity!!!


Calvinistic Cartoons: Listen to Morgan

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Debunking Christianity: When Atheists Should Side with Jehovah's Witnesses

Give an unbeliever or a heretic enough time, they immediately and never disappoint in refuting themselves. On Debunking Christianity today, TGBaker has really put his foot in his mouth in grand fashion. Again my comments are in red.

As an atheist I often quote from the Jehovah's Witness New Testament. Why? Because their translators are not effected by certain doctrines like Trinity. They rely on the most likely version of the Greek text under consideration. Most believers look at John 1:1-4 to argue for Jesus as God.

Jehovah's Witnesses rely on a translation that the consensus of scholars is that it's poorly translated. It's called the New World Translation. And it is untrue that it is influenced the doctrine of the Trinity. Quite the the opposite. The translators who were not experts in Kione Greek or Ancient Hebrew mistranslated the Bible is several instances differently than other great English translations like the Kings James Version so that they could dispense with things like the Trinity. The New World translation is inferior and it's like bringing a dull pocket knife to a gun fight in a scholarly debate.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

Here is where TGBaker shows some dishonesty. He extols the value of the New World Translation but he doesn't point out that it renders John 1:1 differently and side-steps the fact that most translations do not render it into English that way.

1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. - John 1:1 (New World Translation)

It reads really differently to avoid referring to Jesus as God. This is a horrible translation and people who really know Kione Greek agrees. If you want to read documentation on a trial during the early 20th century about the reliability of the New World Translation, you can read the Jehovah's Witness chapter in Dr Walter Martin's book Kingdom of the Cults.

But the much neglected verses of John 1:17-18 not only clarifiy these verses but point to how Jesus as a human teacher became a messiah and then became a god.

17 ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωϋσέως ἐδόθη, ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐγένετο. 18 θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.

The Law was given through Moses, Grace and Truth came about through Jesus Christ, No one has seen God at any time, but the only begotten god which is in the bosom of god has made him known (exegeted him).

We find here in these verses are an elevation of Jesus to a divine person that replaces the law. This is a teaching no different than of Paul. We see a shift from Paul's presentation of Jesus as Wisdom to a Hellenistic function of reason as an agent of creation (Logos). This is already known in Philo of Alexandria's work. http://www.scribd.com/doc/55625043/33/The-Logos-as-Agent-of-Creation

Where does this passage tell us that Jesus replaces the Law? It doesn't. Where does this passage tells us that any of Jesus' first followers considered him just a human teacher. From Matthew to Revelations, Jesus is presented as Messiah and Lord. I know about Philo of Alexander but his description of the Logos does not even compare to a personal being. Paul does not refer to Jesus as a living embodiment of Wisdom.

We also see this term identified as “image” by Philo of Alexandria. Christ as the “image of God” or “form of God” is a way pre-existence enters into the earlier Pauline writings. Verse 17 shows the comparison of the pre-existent Law with the pre-existent Messiah:

Pesachim 54a on the name of the Messiah "Seven things were created before the world was created, and these are they: The Torah, repentance, the Garden of Eden, Gehenna, the Throne of Glory, the Temple, and the name of the Messiah... The name of the Messiah, as it is written, His [sc. the Messiah's] name shall endure forever, and has (Yanun) exited before the sun."

The Jewish idea of the pre-existence of the Messiah's name combined with “image” that we see in Philo is a further opening for Jesus, a mortal soul, to be uplifted by metaphor of worship hymns to literal belief. The Name of the Messiah becomes the Image of God in the hymnal passages of Paul. Again we find Philo who equates the Wisdom of Proverbs 8 with Logos, Image and Spirit:

Proverbs 8:22-30 "The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him..."

I agree that metaphorically "Wisdom" in Proverb 8 can be mapped to Logos but TGBaker take the analogy much farther than what is warranted. By showing the the idea that the pre-existence of the Messiah was already a part of Jewish thought, shows that the Deity and Messiahship of Christ is not out of pocket in the slightest.

In this we can see a first begotten prior to creation. So the potential already resides in Judaism. The intensification of this belief and its rise to a literal per-existent entity that becomes flesh are readily identifiable elements in external literature. The only flaw of the Arians were they were more conservative theologically than the Trinitarians. They were more routed in the meaning of scripture than theological/philosophical speculation. Their motto, There was a time when He was not” point directly to the translation in the Jehovah's Witness and to there doctrine. Their scholars simply continue the second century line of thought:

“Similarly, though Wisdom has had her own independent history within Israelite culture, she has already been identified with the Angel of the LORD long before early Christianity. This is clear from Sirach 24:4 where Wisdom takes up the position of the Angel of the LORD in the cloud of Exodus 14:19 and Wisdom of Solomon 9:1-2, 18:15-16 where Wisdom, Logos and Angel of the Lord are equated. Wisdom and Logos, then, both point to the importance of angelic categories as the common denominator in Jewish mediatorial speculation.” http://tearsofoberon.blogspot.com/2009/09/high-angel-christology-is-jesus-christ.html

I agree that Jehovah's Witness are just carrying on the 2nd Century heresies of the Arians and Gnostics. That is the problem. John 1 speaks against the idea that the Logos ever came into existence. The scriptures do not allow us the luxury of thinking that there was ever a time when the Logos was not and if Jesus is the Logos there was never a time when He was not! The other thing most Protestants, Jews, and Jehovah's Witness agree on is that Sirach is not scripture. Failure all around in this argument.

Please do not misunderstand my usage of Watchtower research. I do not believe in their presentation of a god any more than normative Trinitarian Christianities. But they are not blinded by the presuppositions that trinitarian doctrine entails. The validity of their observations point to the source of their differences from normative Christianities. They like the Restoration Movement of The Campbell's and Barton W. Stone sought to have Christianity based only with what was in the Bible. Stone in fact debated Alexander Campbell for years contending that Trinity was non-biblical and espoused an Arianism long before the Jehovah's Witnesses existed. ( The Millennial Harbinger and The Baptist volumes). What this biblical research of “non-orthodox” Christian movements do is allow us to circumvent doctrines that have blinded many Biblical scholars unconsciously and see what is actually there in its native environment and original historical context.

TGBaker is wrong. Jehovah's Witnesses are so blinded by their desire to reject the normative Christianity that they have gone as far as twisting scripture to support their ideas. They have not made valid observation about the Bible or scripture. They are blinded by other presuppositions. Their doctrines can't be found in the Bible. What the research of "non-orthodox" Christian movements does is further deceive and distort the truth.

² Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. ³ For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. ⁴ They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. - 2 Timothy 4:2-4

Debunking Christianity: When Atheists Should Side with Jehovah's Witnesses

Answering Muslims: Where Did Jesus Say, "I Am God, Worship Me"?

One of the big contentions between Islam and Christianity is regarding Jesus' deity and the Trinity. David Wood has posted a really good article that answers the popular polemic many Muslims use against Christians: "Where Did Jesus Say, 'I AM God, Worship Me!'?" The article affirms Jesus' identity using Scripture and how to understand the arguments from an Islamic perspective.


Answering Muslims: Where Did Jesus Say, "I Am God, Worship Me"?

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Deity of Christ Debate, Pt. 2

Thanks to Jeff Downs for announcing that the 2nd part of the Jame White and Michael Brown team up to defend the Deity of Christ and the Trinity. A great video!

Deity of Christ Debate, Pt. 2

Jewish Voice Ministries International: This Week's Guest on "Jewish Voice with Jonathan Bernis"

I've been waiting for this one!!! I heard that Doctors James White and Micheal Brown tag teamed in a debate on the deity of Jesus and the Trinity. These scholars are a dream team for defending these fundamental truths of Christianity. Without these, we have nothing. The debate is being aired on Jewish Voice but it's being aired in parts. The debate is between Brown and White verses Anthony Buzzard and Joseph Goode who reject the Trinity. I have linked to the video for the first part and you can see the next part starting today on TV. It should be posted on the internet soon.

Jewish Voice Ministries International: This Week's Guest on "Jewish Voice with Jonathan Bernis"
Video - Debate - part 1

Islam and Christianity A Common Word: Phillipians 2:5-7 The Kenosis and the alleged deity of Christ Jesus

Often thegrandverbalizer posts really interesting articles on his blog from a Muslim perspective. Many times these articles seek to explain why Christians are wrong about the Trinity and Jesus' deity. He wrote:

The theological rift between Christians and Muslims exist because of thirty six Greek words in a New Testament epistle entitled Phillipians. I ask you sisters and brothers is it worth it? Do you want this seperation between us to continue because of thirty six Greek works in an epistle not written or approved of by Christ Jesus? An epistle that has ambiguous language that Christians themselves are in much dispute over? The Holy Qur'an has come to call the Christians back to pure monotheism. It is time to come back home.

He says that the words in question are from

Philippians 2:5-7 (New American Standard Bible)

⁵Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
⁶who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,⁷but ^[a] emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Footnotes:

1. Philippians 2:7 I.e. laid aside His privileges

Then he writes something that really baffles me.

So what does it mean when we say that Christ Jesus 'emptied himself' ? Emptied himself of what? The term or word kenosis means 'emptying' or 'to empty'. If he emptied himself of his attributes than he is no longer God because God is not God without his attributes.

That would be like Clark Kent going into the crystal chamber and giving up his Super-man powers. Superman is not superman without his powers he is just Clark Kent.

I'm baffled because I'm not sure he read the footnote. Paul was not saying that Jesus laid aside that which makes Jesus God. What Jesus laid aside was those privileges that comes with that. He humbled himself to the point of death.


Further, thegrandverbalizer wrote:

"Do you have an instance of Jesus healing or forgiving people BEFORE he recieved the Holy Spirit?"

None of the Christians so far have attempted to interact with that question. You can see it here:

http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2010/06/sin-forgiving-god.html

Christians don't interact with that question because we don't think that there was evedr a time where Jesus did not have the Holy Spirit, nor any time when He was not God. Paul wrote in Colossians 1:15-20

¹⁵He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. ¹⁶For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. ¹⁷He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. ¹⁸And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. ¹⁹For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, ²⁰and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Paul obviously believed that Jesus was God. And so did the Apostle John in John 1:1-18

¹In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ²He was with God in the beginning.
³Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. ⁴In him was life, and that life was the light of men. ⁵The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
⁶There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. ⁷He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. ⁸He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. ⁹The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
¹⁰He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. ¹¹He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. ¹²Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— ¹³children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
¹⁴The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
¹⁵John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " ¹⁶From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. ¹⁷For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. ¹⁸No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

So did Isaiah...Read Isaiah 9:6

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

I think the disconnect is that thegrandverbalizer does not understand what the Trinity is. I can't fault him for that because i don't think anyone fully understand it. Thegrandverbalizer wrote

This brings us to the argument from Rene Descartes (Cogito ergo Sum) I think, therefore I am)

Rene Descartes speaks of person as the subject of self-awareness and freedom-in brief, person as a conscious and autonomous self.

Is God aware of his own existence?

Does 'God the Father' think?

Does 'God the Son' think?

Does 'God the Holy Spirit' think?

If there is only one mind and one self existence than God is absolutely one and not tri-unity. IF there are three minds and three self existences than without doubt Christians have slipped into Tri-theism and worship three gods.

IS the Trinitarian God one in mind, will, and action? If so, how can this be so? If the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one in mind, will and action, in what sense can they be three persons If the three act as one and so are one in nature, what room is left to distinguish three persons?

Again the problem is a fundamental misunderstanding on what we are talking about when we talk of the Trinity. Descartes proof for self awareness does not work for God.  God's existence is not causal. Rather everything that exists does so because of God. God exists...period. God's sustains God with God. "I think therefore I am" works for humans but not for God. The closest God can can truthfully say about His own existence is "I AM". (In Hebrew it's closer to say "I IS". The Trinity is not about three distinct beings. God is one being and three distinct persons. The Bible says that the Father is God. The Son is God.  The Holy Spirit is God.  And there is one God. God is self-existent. The divine name contains all of this and more.

Thegrandverbalizer insinuated that Jesus would never had agreed to the high place and standard that we give to Jesus. If that were the case then why did the Jews of His time understand that Jesus was claiming equality with God? Why did Jesus not refuse worship?

What did Jesus mean in the following passage: John 8:52-59

 ⁵²At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. ⁵³Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"
 ⁵⁴Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. ⁵⁵Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. ⁵⁶Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
 ⁵⁷"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
 ⁵⁸"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" ⁵⁹At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Jesus seemed pretty clear about who He is. Why do we doubt the things that He says?


Islam and Christianity A Common Word: Phillipians 2:5-7 The Kenosis and the alleged deity of Christ Jesus

On Jesus Deity and Emperor Constantine | True Freethinker

Image by wallyg via Flickr

Thanks, Mariano, for pointing out this video.




On Jesus Deity and Emperor Constantine | True Freethinker

Line of Fire » Blog Archive » March 23, 2010: Brown vs Buzzard pt 2

Image by Zombie Inc. Wholesale zombies for over 20 years via Flickr

This was a great discussion. I liked it better than the first one. I think Anthony Buzzard is sincere. I just totally disagree with him when it comes to the deity of Christ and the Trinity. I think his sticking point is that He argues that God is a person and not just a being. This leads him to reject the pre-existence of Jesus. and reinterpret a lot of scriptures in a way no one in orthodox and historic Christianity understood. This one is definitely worth listening to.

Line of Fire » Blog Archive » March 23, 2010