Monster God or Monster Man Debate - YouTube

This debate was between Michael Brown and Brian Zahn regarding Penal Substitutionary Atonement. Dr Brown totally won this!

Monster God or Monster Man Debate - YouTube

Easter Sunday March 31, 2013

Hello Evangelist Temple and guests. Happy Resurrection Sunday. We are here today to celebrate the fact that our savior and master gave his life to redeem us from sin and death and then picked up His life again three days later. We don’t have a lot of time today and to be completely honest any one of us could stand up here for years nonstop covering what God has done for us. Today, I’m going to try to keep this more manageable. I have three topics I have been given to share with you all today. 

1.    Why Did Jesus have to come and die and be resurrected
2.      What was Jesus thinking about as he hung on that cross for you and for me? 
3.        What should you do about it?

Number 1.

For those of you who don’t know, I often have the opportunity to hear and read and watch the opinions of nonbelievers. It’s a blessing. In hearing the pathetic attempts used to deny the Gospel of Jesus Christ you can learn a lot about God and humanity. For example: have you ever stopped to think about why Jesus had to die? It’s an important question and in many ways the one question that matters when all is said and done.  I mean why couldn’t God just wave his hand and somehow forgive our sin such that no one dies or suffer? For some people it is because questions like these that they miss being saved. If you don’t know the answer to this question, shouldn’t you know? It’s not like we have an excuse for not knowing. God had made sure that scripture contains the answer for this question. Let’s kick this around for a short period of time.

Well, let’s look at a person before they come to faith in Christ. The Bible says:

²² This righteousness is given through faith in^[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, ²³ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ²⁴ and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. ²⁵ God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,^[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— ²⁶ he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
²⁷ Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. ²⁸ For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. ²⁹ Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, ³⁰ since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. ³¹ Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. – Romans 3:22-31

The scripture is clear. All people are sinners. Sin is the deeds and thoughts we have that go against who God is and what God’s standards are. This passage tells us what God did despite our sin. He saves us by presenting Jesus as an atoning sacrifice and held off on punishing sin so that we can experience God’s righteousness giving us this salvation through faith in Jesus. Those of us who think that forgiveness of sin is an easy thing don’t understand how bad sin is. Sin is sin. It doesn’t matter how trivial you think it is or how small. All sin has the same result:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. – Romans 6:23

Let that sink in. Because of our sin we deserve death. Not just physical death but total separation and no fellowship with God. The kicker is that we have earned it. But eternal life is a gift to us through Jesus. But this gift is not cheap. It was so expensive that it cost Jesus’ suffering and death.

⁶ You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. ⁷ Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. ⁸ But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
⁹ Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! ¹⁰ For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! ¹¹ Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. – Romans 5:6-11

We were his enemies, but Jesus still chose to die in our place. In theological terms, this doctrine is called “Substitution”. Life for Life. Instead of the full measure of the wrath of God being brought upon us for which we so deserve, Jesus took the brunt of it for it. All your sin. All my sin. For everything we have ever done. Not just us after his sacrifice but for every human being that has ever lived or will ever live. Think about how good God is. Look at how much Jesus loves us. He is innocent. But he paid for us. Every lie you or I ever told.  Every evil thought and desire. Every mean thing. Not just big things – like rape and murder, but even the things we think are small things. God doesn’t make such distinctions. Neither you nor I are less a sinner than anyone else. No, Hitler is not worse than you. It’s all abominable to God and will send you straight to hell.
Let’s look at it from another point of view. We’ll use one of my favorite words in King James Version of the Bible: propitiation.

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. – 1 John 4:10

In a lot of newer translation the word ilasmon (“hilasmos” G2434)   as “atoning sacrifice” instead of “propitiation”.  Unfortunate because in today’s world you won’t find many people using the word “propitiation”. I’ve been trying to work it in to every day conversation but haven’t been able to make it fit. The word carries with it the notion of appeasement or satisfaction.  It’s more than atonement – making up for an offense. Jesus turned the wrath of God away from us. He gave us peace with God – we no longer have to be God’s enemies.

I don’t have time to go into detail of how just how awful the details of Jesus’ crucifixion was. From a historical point of view, you have to understand the point of Roman crucifixion was humiliation and torture. Jesus did not just die for us - he was tortured and suffered in our place. That should have been you and me on that cross not him. The idea was to show everyone just how powerful Rome was and how much of a nothing that person who was being executed was considered to be in the eyes of the state. It was shameful and not discussed in polite circles. But God took that and based our lives around it. Look at this this way: crucifixion was so horrible that they had to invent a word back then to describe how painful it was – “excruciating”. Today, one of the best ways to understand this in a visual way is Mel Gibson’s movie “The Passion of the Christ” from 2004. Just remember the film makers toned it down a lot – they needed an R rating. 

No one else was worthy. Jesus – God incarnate – had to be the one. Our blood is tainted by sin He was sinless. Neither you nor I could pay for our own sin. Sin is that bad. When we sin we do violence to ourselves, everyone around us, and worse to God. This is what makes hell necessary. Only an eternal punishment is penalty enough against an infinite God. The Son had to take on human flesh and live among us and pay the penalty for us. 

⁴ It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

⁵ Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
    but a body you prepared for me; ⁶ with burnt offerings and sin offerings
    you were not pleased. – Hebrews 10:4-6

Okay this take us to the second thing I have to bring up to you today. We know what Jesus was thinking about as He hung on that cross. Here is one of the things he said:

And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”). – Mark 15-33-35

Both Mark and Matthew record this saying. Many people think this mean that the Father turned

His back on Jesus because the Father is too holy to look upon sin. Some Muslims and Atheists use it to reject the whole account because they reason that God could never turn his back on one of his own. Each of these viewpoints really upset me and in the interest of time, instead of demolishing these ideas let’s focus on what Jesus did here. Jesus knew the time had come for him to die and yet he wanted to communicate something important with his last breaths. He quoted a scripture – Psalm 22. In first century Judaism, Jews knew the scriptures so well that when they wanted to refer to a scripture they would quote the first phrase or sentence and everyone would know what they were referring to. After all in Jesus’ time there were no Chapter and verse divisions like we have them now.

So what does Psalm 22 say?

¹ My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
    Why are you so far from saving me,
    so far from my cries of anguish? ² My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
    by night, but I find no rest.^[b]

³ Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
    you are the one Israel praises.^{[c] 4} In you our ancestors put their trust;
    they trusted and you delivered them. ⁵ To you they cried out and were saved;
    in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

⁶ But I am a worm and not a man,
    scorned by everyone, despised by the people. ⁷ All who see me mock me;
    they hurl insults, shaking their heads. ⁸ “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him. Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”

⁹ Yet you brought me out of the womb;
    you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast. ¹⁰ From birth I was cast on you;
    from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

¹¹ Do not be far from me,
    for trouble is near
    and there is no one to help.

¹² Many bulls surround me;
    strong bulls of Bashan encircle me. ¹³ Roaring lions that tear their prey
    open their mouths wide against me. ¹⁴ I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax;
    it has melted within me. ¹⁵ My mouth^[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
    and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
    you lay me in the dust of death.

¹⁶ Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce^[e] my hands and my feet. ¹⁷ All my bones are on display;
    people stare and gloat over me. ¹⁸ They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

¹⁹ But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
    You are my strength; come quickly to help me. ²⁰ Deliver me from the sword,
    my precious life from the power of the dogs. ²¹ Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
    save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

²² I will declare your name to my people;
    in the assembly I will praise you. ²³ You who fear the Lord, praise him!
    All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
    Revere him, all you descendants of Israel! ²⁴ For he has not despised or scorned
    the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him
    but has listened to his cry for help.

²⁵ From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
    before those who fear you^[f] I will fulfill my vows. ²⁶ The poor will eat and be satisfied;
    those who seek the Lord will praise him—
    may your hearts live forever!

²⁷ All the ends of the earth
    will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations
    will bow down before him, ²⁸ for dominion belongs to the Lord
    and he rules over the nations.

²⁹ All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
    all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
    those who cannot keep themselves alive. ³⁰ Posterity will serve him;
    future generations will be told about the Lord. ³¹ They will proclaim his righteousness,
    declaring to a people yet unborn:
    He has done it!

If you take the time to read the Psalm, you recognize that the speaker can’t be King David, although we think he wrote it. David describes what happened to Jesus! And David lived about 1000 years before Jesus! Jesus is saying “I’ve won this!” In John’s account, Jesus said “It is finished.” It is one word in Greek “Telos” and it is equivalent to “Viola”. The one thing you can say after completing a masterpiece.

Finally, what should be our response?

⁹ If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. ¹⁰ For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. ¹¹ As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”^{[e] 12} For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, ¹³ for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” – Romans 10: 9 -13

We make it so difficult but it’s not. If reach out to Jesus in faith he will not reject you. And as for those of us who have been “appointed for eternal life” (Acts 13:48) what is your response after you have turned away from your sins and thrown yourself on the mercy of God? Here is a start.

¹⁹ Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; ²⁰ you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies. – 1 Corinthians 6:19-20

We study the scripture and depend on God for the rest. I feel the need to make one last appeal to all of us. We must put our faith in Jesus. He is everything. Without him we have nothing and we are nothing. Please…..Please….consider Jesus’ words.

²³ But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. ²⁴ I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” – John 8:23-24

If you believe that Jesus is the one who came and paid the debt of sin, you are saved. You can’t express it any more plain than Jesus did. Let us end with a quote from Paul who understood how central Jesus is for us.

²⁰ I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. – Galatians 2:20

FacePalm of the Day #85 - Debunking Christianity: Christology Rests Upon a Mistake

There has been guest post on Debunking Christianity that needs a response because it rest on a fundamental assertion that can't be substantiated

Christology rests upon a mistake. This is a simple statement that could be easily understood by much of the various Christian denominations. As so it means the invalidity of the Christian Faith since it rests upon its own Christology.

Christology or how and why Jesus saves is based upon the idea that the Genesis account of Creation is real. However, much of Christendom apart from conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists knows how the universe began and that evolution is factual. They also affirm that the Genesis account of the Creation and Adam and Eve are mythological. It is unlikely for example that plants were created a day before the sun, moon and stars as in presented in Genesis. Also there is plenty of fossil and genetic evidence that humankind has been about hundreds of thousands of years.

Since the Creation and the Fall are mythological and not literal accounts there is no basis to assume there is original sin. Christology is based upon original sin. The death of Jesus upon the cross is a sacrifice (propitiation) for that sin. Paul argues it, “As in Adam all have sinned and died so in Christ all are made alive.” Since there was no Adam, Eve, Eden, or Fall then there is no basis for a need of salvation. Jesus did not die for your sins. He died because of his teachings.

The author attacks the fundamental truth that Jesus' life, sacrifice, and redemption is the means of salvation from sin and death by arguing that the story of Genesis is wrong because there was no Adam and no original sin. The author concludes that there is no need of propitiation because there is no original sin. I see two problems with his line of reasoning: 1. If sin is defined as the propensity and inability to obey God and live up to the standards God has set for us then our need for salvation really hasn't much to do with Adam or Eve because each and everyone of us have more than enough sin to deserve punishment on our own without even looking at Adam or Eve,  2. Who says that Genesis is incorrect?

I don't think that Adam and Eve are mythological at all. Is the earth billions of years old? Yup. Does the Bible say it's not billions of years old? Nope. I suggest that anyone has a problem with the order of Creation or the meaning of "Yom:" - translated "days" - they should look up the work of  Dr Hugh Ross and his ministry at Reasons to Believe. I've posted a few resources from him on this blog here.  I don't agree with everything but I think he is right that the Earth is extremely more than 6000 years old and I think he gives good reasons for thinking it from science and scripture. As for Original Sin, given that the Bible does not give us enough information to figure out how long ago Creation, Eden, and Noah's Ark happened, but that does not mean that they didn't happen.

Every honest person has to admit that we are sinners. We have all told at least one lie. We have all failed to live up to what is right. We have hurt other people. We have not done all the good we could have done.  Do we really think that we can just ignore that? Do we really think we are not accountable for the evil we have done? Do we really think that we don't owe? Do we not deserve judgment? We also have to agree that we have done wrong some of those times not intending to do it and sometimes it was voluntary.

²¹ So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. ²² For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; ²³ but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. ²⁴ What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? ²⁵ Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
   So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.- Romans 7:21-25

Without Jesus what do you have? What is your propitiation? I agree that Jesus did indeed die for His teachings. What did Jesus teach? Jesus said:

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” - John 8:24

²⁵ Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; ²⁶ and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” - John 11:25-26


³² And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” ³³ He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.- John 12:32-33

Also let us not forget that when the angel Gabriel announced Jesus' birth to His mother Mary, Jesus' purpose is clearly spelled out!

³⁵ The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. ³⁶ Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. ³⁷ For no word from God will ever fail.” - Luke 1:35-37

Without Jesus you are in your sins! Come to Him so you can be acquitted and avoid the punishments you deserve. You won't be declared "Innocent" but "Not Guilty!" That is the meaning of propitiation.

 ⁵ Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.”  ⁶ But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) ⁷ “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). ⁸ But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: ⁹ If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. ¹⁰ For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. ¹¹ As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” ¹² For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, ¹³ for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” - Romans 10:5-13

Debunking Christianity: Christology Rests Upon a Mistake

Related articles

• A Christological Question Regarding Heb. 1:4 (diglotting.com)
• Where I Stand On Christology (diglotting.com)
• Adam and Eve: the ultimate standoff between science and faith (and a contest!) (whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com)
• What is the christology of the gospels (wiki.answers.com)
• Sin, Bad, Evil, Devil, Our Reality Part I (psychetymology.wordpress.com)
• Original Sin (paulmarcelrene.wordpress.com)
• High Christology - Whence, When and Why? (diglotting.com)

Can A Metamorphesis Be Reversed? Examining Apostasy.

Ryan Anderson who says he was a Christian for 25 years and then left the Christian Church to become agnostics with respect to the question of a god who started the Universe and an atheist with respect to the God of the Bible. I posed some questions and some statements to him regarding what it means to be a born-again Christian from a Biblical perspective. He...er graciously...answered them. Instead of trying to just dash off  some responses and more questions in the comments I decided to separate it into another post.  I've placed my quoted words in Black, bolded, italic font.  His words will be in black bolded text. Ryan has been arguing that he was every way as much as a Christian as I am now and the differences are only because of denomination. My responses to what he answered will be in red text. I started this part of our interaction as follows:

Ryan, if the Bible is true these two things is true:
1. You never knew Jesus the Christ because you left
2. A born-again believer can't become unborn-again anymore than a butterfly can turn back into caterpillar.

Let's go back to first things.
1. Do you know what sin is? Define it.
2. Are you a sinner? If you apply the Biblical standard and honesty you know you have to say you are a sinner, You cannot even keep the moral standard you have set for yourself.
3. If you are a sinner what do you give God as Propitiation? What about when fail your family and friends? If you are accountable how do y0ou make up your mistakes when you don't do what you are supposed to do?
4. As a "Christian" if you were walking around feeling guilt and pain over your past or present or future, you were definitely doing it wrong.
5. If you now say that prayer does not work and when you were "saved" for 25 yrs you only thought it worked, I've got to say given points 1-4 maybe God just ignored your prayers. That's not saying that God doesn't hear prayers from non-Christians because he does and can choose to grant them what they pray for, but God ignoring you or just outright saying "No" might explain your experience.
6. If you were saved it would mean having a relationship with God. Not just a "feeling" but a back and forth relationship. You claim that you didn't. That flies against my experience and every born-again Christian I have ever known.
7. Head Knowledge is not enough. Necessary but in no way sufficient. 

Ryan  Anderson answered me in the following way with my comments.

Right, because the bible isn't true, at least not about the supernatural stuff.

He keeps saying that, but never has managed to proven it.

I'll answer these later tonight, and I'll answer from the perspective of a believer because apparently you can't quite get your arms around the notion that my beliefs now do not reflect my beliefs from a past period.


At least he kept his promise to respond.

But, if I go to the trouble of answering these questions for you, I'll expect a description of your "born again" experience. Fair's fair.

It'll be at the very end of this in red.


OK, here you go. Also I have no doubt that some minor deviation from how your particular sect would answer some of these will give you license to yell "False Convert!!!"

Let's us see the conclusion of the whole matter.

1. Tough to define, there are the obvious ones like lusting in your heart or hating, but I came to think of it more as deviation from godliness or the difference between what you actually do and what you should do (or what god would do).

Notice how you look at sin, Ryan, as what you do. Methodists, as well as all other Bible-based denominations,  don't define sin only in that limit view. It's more than just failing to live up to the standard God has set. It's crime and violence against the character of God himself. Think of it this way: you have a child who, after raising him/her up and giving him everything he/she could ever need, and he/she turns her back on you, rejects you, curses you, and spits in your face. Not only that but they do violence to others and try to destroy everything you have built for them. Think of how much that would hurt as a loving Father and you start to come closer to how our sin is an affront to God. It's not just about what you did or do - it's about what you fail to do. I can't ding you too hard for missing a lot of the thrust here because if you truly understood what Jesus did for you on that cross you would not have left Him.

2. You answered this one for me, but of course as a Christian, I believe I, and everyone else was a sinner and was born that way, that's how they scare you into needing the cure.

I was actually asking about if you consider yourself a sinner now? Do you live up to the standards of what you know to be right and shunning doing wrong now?

3. As a Christian, nothing, except faith in Christ. If you fell short, you were to "go forth and sin no more" or at least try. Maybe I misunderstood what you were asking.

Definitely misunderstood. Not surprising though because I don't think you ever understood it.  Ryan, the question was more directed to your condition today. By Biblical definitions, you are still a sinner. How do you fix that. You and I will always fall short. How do you make up for that?  Why shouldn't God just take you out? When you were Christian, did you understand that Jesus alone makes the difference? Without him you will receive the full wrath of God - what we truly deserve. We had an interaction  once where you vehemently denied that people are inherently evil and without any hope of doing good on our own apart from God. You kept saying that people are capable of doing good things and never seemed to understand that I do not deny that. Instead I am saying that the Bible shows us that we are not good - instead we are shaped in iniquity  and every inclination to evil - without God. I'd bet that when you were a Christian you would have denied those truths in the Bible just like you do today.

4. This was more of a statement than a question. I felt a lot of guilt prior to being born again, and then not after.

I'm kind of wondering where did I tell you I was only going to be asking you questions.After being born-again a believer should be going through the lifelong process of sanctification. This means that God starts cleaning you up from your sins and you grow to become more like Jesus Christ. You sin less and less. Your thought processes and relationships with others change. You get closer to God. The thing is the more closer you get to God the more filthy you see you are. You see you have sins you didn't even know you had.  That's not saying the guilt comes back or increase. No. Joy and gratitude to God for saving you increases. It continually goes on. I realize that you,Ryan, was writing quickly and not giving a lot of details but in all of our interactions you have never brought this up as something you experienced. Every believer that I know, including myself, will testify to this.

5. Again, not so much a question. But I will say my prayers were sometimes "answered" and sometimes not. At the time, I was amazing when they were "answered", more likely I was simply counting the hits and dismissing the misses.

I think you are making a big assumption here, Ryan. To be fair I think most people make this same  mistake: thinking an "answered" prayer  means that things turned out the way you prayed for them to turn out.  However God can and sometimes does say "No". In my experience some of my greatest blessings have come time when God has said "No". Another difference I see between mine and other believers I know experiences contrasted with yours  is that you never talk about other kinds of prayers other than asking God to do something on your behalf. There are other types of prayers. Didn't you ever pray for guidance? Didn't you ever pray for wisdom? Didn't you ever pray to be a blessing to other people? Have you ever asked God to give you patience?  Have you ever interceded with God on the behalf of anyone but yourself? Some of the best ways I've seen God move in such a way that there were no other explanation but that God did it were in those circumstances when I was concerned with pleasing him more than myself. My experience with God is that God never misses.

6. Please describe in detail some of the examples of reciprocation in your "back-and-forth" relationship with god and explain how those instances could not possibly have a natural explanation. I suspect, like I said before, you are merely counting the hits and dismissing the misses.

Everyone knows that if you are honest most of the time you have no idea what you are doing. We are all really "winging" it.  I have had the experience of God's guidance. Giving me knowledge I did not know and how to apply it when I needed it.  He's done it by having someone  tell me about something I asked God about. And sometimes it's been straight revelation. Also there have been many times when God did not and has not told me things I wanted to know when I wanted to know them. He does both. It's not something we are in control over. I have walked up to people and been able to tell them exactly what they needed hear or read because God gave me what they needed. God has spared my life on numerous occasions - from dangers I knew about and some I did not - even before I was saved.I know what it's like to about to say or do something in anger, and the Holy Spirit stops me. Sometimes it's been a nudge and there have been times God has shut my mouth. I thank Him for both.

7. Again, not really a question, but on one hand you say it's not enough to "feel", on the other, head knowledge isn't enough. Is this one of the mysteries of your cult?

I'm not sure what your confusion is here, Ryan. Where did I say you should only go on your feelings to relate to God? When did I say that you should only use head knowledge to relate to God? I didn't. I'm thinking that you only had a head knowledge of scripture. and you didn't have a change in heart - mind and attitude. The more I learn about God the more I learn how much I need to change in my thinking and actions. You really didn't describe your born-again experience. What sins did you stop doing after your received Jesus as your Lord and Savior? How did your life change? Did you have an insatiable hunger to read the Bible and learn more about God? These are what happened to me and continue to grow and manifest. For example, recently God revealed a huge problem I had and I didn't even know it. I had a huge problem with the fact that  slavery had been an institution in the United States - so much so that I thought that any white person who owned slaves had gone straight to hell. I was convicted by this when God made me realize that this thought was not Biblical. It's not part of the Gospel. It's not a litmus test for who makes it heaven or not. I was floored! I didn't even know I was that prejudiced. Another example is I thought that people who left Christianity or just rejected Jesus were stupid. I thought that there was something about me more special than they are. God again showed me how stupid that is - from scripture. When you were a Christian, how did God change your mind? Can you relate to the prophet Isaiah? He said:

“Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.” - Isaiah 6:5

If you don't have a clue about how Isaiah felt, you weren't saved.  The thing about the born-again experience it's about a change in you. You are not supposed to be the same person you were before your conversion. It's a one-way conversion. Again: once one is born you can't become unborn. This is why Jesus used the term "born again" (or "born from above") to describe it in John 3. 

Paul was also clear in Romans 12:1,2

Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.  Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

It's an ongoing transformation not a one-time deal.. The word the Bible uses to say "transformed" is the same word we get "metamorphosis" from. Ryan, you claim to know biology better than I do. Therefore you know that there is not a single change described in biology as a metamorphosis that is reversible. For example butterflies do not turn back into caterpillars. This is why the changes born-again person goes through is described that.

Ryan, I recognize that the Bible holds not weight for you and I have to wonder how much weight did it hold for you when you were a "Christian". I think if you think back you will remember quite a few things in it you didn't accept from the Bible back then either. There are two more scriptures that I would point to underscore the point that saved people can't become unsaved. 

So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.- 1 Corinthians 5:16-21

Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1 John 2:18-20

I know that there are some Christians who do believe that you can loose your salvation. Ryan, you may have been one of these. However, the scripture that tell us to persevere and not give up or turn away are there because we should never look at this as if  you can do whatever you want and still be saved. If you are still doing and thinking all of the same stuff you were before you were born-again it's proof that you were not born-again. There should be some thing different if you are truly a new creation. 

Ryan, consider for a moment: It seems to me that if you reject the scriptures as being true now, you actually prove that they are indeed true because you are fulfilling them. They are describing you. IT doesn't have to be that way. Everyone is born a sinner, and if you or anyone repents and agrees with God, He will accept you and change you the way the Bible promises. I know because that is what I experienced and you didn't.

Jesus Is Our Propitiation

On Sunday, December 12, 2010, I had the blessing of preaching at my church. My subject was: Jesus Is Our Propitiation. It was an amazing  day. The whole service seemed to be driven to be setup to discuss this. subject. By the time I spoke, we was ready. I've posted the powerpoint below.

Jesus Is Our Propitiation

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