Debunking Christianity: Two New Books on the Historicity of Jesus by Richard Carrier and Robert Price

John Loftus has recently posted an article discussing two books by Richard Carrier and Robert Price challenging the Historicity of  Jesus' existence. Carrier has finally decided to write a book trying to explain what he thinks about Jesus. Price has been up front and honest that he does not think that Jesus existed and that most historians and scholar (Christians or not) disagree with him. However up until now Carrier has not been as dogmatic about it, but just suggested that Jesus did not exist. Loftus posted the following video. Carrier does not make a point to allege that he can prove emphatically that Jesus did not exist, but now he has written a book. I won't try to say that he is now saying the he can prove that Jesus did not exist because I have not read the book. However, the video does seem to explain that Carrier thinks that it is reasonable to hold the idea that Jesus may not have existed. 




Richard Carrier's version


However Bart Ehrman says something qualitatively different

Bart Ehrman's Version


So which is it? Ehrman is an Agnostic. Carrier is an atheist. They both reject the Bible as being infallible. They both reject Christianity. They both reject Jesus' Resurrection. They disagree about Jesus' existence as a living person. They both can't be right.  How do you know? The preponderance of evidence is on Ehrman's side. What about other professional historian?

Various other Historians




Debunking Christianity: Two New Books on the Historicity of Jesus by Richard Carrier and Robert Price

CMW: How Would the Gospels Look Different if They Were True?

On Jason Rennie's podcast "Christian Meets World", he spent the past 5 weeks airing interviews with some scholars on what they think about the validity of the Gospels. He interviewed three Christians and asked them why they think the Gospels are true and interviews two unbelievers and asked them how would the Gospels look different if they were true.

Episode 1: Dr Ben Witherington
Episode 2: John Loftus
Episode 3: JP Holding
Episode 4: Robert Price
Episode 5: Dr Gary Habermas

How would the Gospels Look Different if? 50-54

Debunking Christianity: Did Jesus Exist? An All Out War Is Going On

John Loftus wrote a blog post about the war being waged over Jesus' existence. He agrees that Jesus was a living person but does not believe what the Bible says about Him. He points out that he thinks that the argument is pointless because Jesus' historical existence being true does not mean that what the Bible says about Him is true. I agree with that. However I see why some Atheists/Agnostics like Dr Richard Carrier and Robert Price desire to deny Jesus' existence because that means the Bible has to be wrong - all of what we call the "New Testament".  No Resurrection. No point to Christianity.



But the myth that Jesus did not exist is a minority opinion. We have evidence for Jesus. Plenty of evidence. People deny this evidence because it keeps them from having to deal with who Jesus is and our accountability to Him. Also asserting that we know that what the Bible says about Jesus is not something that neither Loftus or anyone could possibly prove. They keep trying, but failing that, they punt to denying Jesus' very existence. Rather sad.



Debunking Christianity: Did Jesus Exist? An All Out War Is Going On

Debunking Christianity: Did Paul Conceive of a Resurrected Body and if So Does this Change Anything?

WONDERS NEVER CEASE!!!! John Loftus actually posted a blog post that I largely agree with!!!!? Shock and Awe!!! God can really do anything!

At the very least what I do is grant for the sake of argument that Paul’s view was the transformation of the body of Jesus into an imperishable one, a supernatural one, but a body nonetheless, one that came from a mortal, perishable one. It was not a bodily resuscitation, nor was it probably a spiritual resurrection leaving his body still lying in the grave. This grants more than most skeptics or liberals will allow, I know. I want to take the best case scenario and see what follows. I don’t think it follows that Jesus bodily rose up from the grave.

It fills me with hope that John Loftus can really read a Bible passage and understand what it says even if he doesn't agree with it. Of course taking this stand means that he disagrees with Dr. Robert Price that Paul believed in a physical Resurrection. Price says he didn't. I agree with Loftus that he did. I see no way that one can honestly come form to Price's conclusions for the same reasons Loftus enumerates in his posts. The bottom line is that Paul did believe that Jesus rose bodily from the grave. Now there can be a discussion as to whether or not Jesus did.

Instead of nitpicking the article, let's look at the first comment from Samphire:

Take a grain of wheat and burn it; grind up the carbon remaining and throw it in the sea. No new plant.

Take a christian (dead or alive) and burn it; grind up the carbon remaining and throw it in the sea. No new christian.

So is Paul just playing with words? Does his theology reflect itself in any reality?

We need some flesh of meaning on these dead bones of scripture. Even WLC doesn't seem to have a clue as to what a glorified body is. If there is any real meaning to what Paul was preacing surely after 2,000 years of discussion somebody should have some sort of clue. But it seems not.

And what did the Pillars think of Paul's teaching? There is not a single word on the subject in the epistles of James, John or Peter. What does that tell us?

If God could call all of reality into existence, restoring a cremated body should be easy! Paul does not try to explain what a glorified body is in detail. Only that it was physical. I see nothing wrong with that. Oh and we do know what Peter thought of Paul's teaching!

¹⁴ So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. ¹⁵ Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. ¹⁶ He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. - 2 Peter 3:14-16

Twisting Paul's letters into distorted lies is something I see often in our culture today.

Debunking Christianity: Did Paul Conceive of a Resurrected Body and if So Does this Change Anything?

Jesus: Legend, Teacher, Critic, or Son of God?

Dr. Robert Price and Dr. Greg Boyd debate on who Jesus is. I admit that Price was very articulate, but wrong. Price argued that Christianity worships a legendary Christ. Boyd argued for the Christian teachings of Jesus. Price tried to argue that the Jesus of Christianity is a product of legend. He tried to argue that there have been cases where people have become exalted and deified and augmented by legend while the person is still alive or within 20 to 30 years of their deaths. He used the example of a Jewish Messiah in 1660s, Sabatai Savi, who centuries ago was thought by many to be the messiah, but had eventually converted to Islam. He also used the example of Charles Mansion. Both men even had miracles ascribed to them. Price's idea is that Jesus' miracles are legendary. The problem is that unlike Jesus...no one thinks of these other guys as messianic. We can show and prove that they are not deity. After 2000 years, Jesus' claims and those that his followers made about him still stand. I wish Boyd had spent some time refuting Boyd on this point. But Boyd still did a great job. The debate is below.