Historical Teaching of Purgatory?

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I wrote a post of Tim Staples' debate on purgatory with James White. Read it at: Debate: James White vs Tim Staples - Debating Purgatory. In the comments section I made the challenge for anyone to find evidence that people in ancient times understood "purgatory:" the way Tim Staples does - as a process not a place. Mike R has been kind enough to give me an answer. Let's analyze it.

Mike R said...

Here you Go Marcus, From well before the reformation. Clearly this is a reference to a process, not a place. Straight from Cyril of Jerulalem in the 4th century. It is described as a process, not a place. "The Apostolic practice of praying for the dead which passed into the liturgy of the Church, is as clear in the fourth century as it is in the twentieth. St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Mystagogical Catechesis V.9) describing the liturgy, writes: "Then we pray for the Holy Fathers and Bishops that are dead; and in short for all those who have departed this life in our communion; believing that the souls of those for whom prayers are offered receive very great relief, while this holy and tremendous victim lies upon the altar." St. Gregory of Nyssa (P.G., XLVI, col. 524, 525) states that man's weaknesses are purged in this life by prayer and wisdom, or are expiated in the next by a cleansing fire. "When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." About the same time the Apostolic Constitution gives us the formularies used in succouring the dead. "Let us pray for our brethren who sleep in Christ, that God who in his love for men has received the soul of the departed one, may forgive him every fault, and in mercy and clemency receive him into the bosom of Abraham, with those who in this life have pleased God" (P.G. I, col. 1144). Nor can we pass over the use of the diptychs where the names of the dead were inscribed; and this remembrance by name in the Sacred Mysteries--(a practice that was from the Apostles) was considered by Chrysostom as the best way of relieving the dead (Homily 41 on First Corinthians, no. 8). "

First I'm glad that Mike saw fit to run down a reference however it is not clear to me where the referenece is form. I'll five mike the benefit of the doubt and assume that it is a real reference. Because Mike focusedm on Cyril I will to. The quote says:

St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Mystagogical Catechesis V.9) describing the liturgy, writes: "Then we pray for the Holy Fathers and Bishops that are dead; and in short for all those who have departed this life in our communion; believing that the souls of those for whom prayers are offered receive very great relief, while this holy and tremendous victim lies upon the altar."

Mike claims that Cyril believed that purgatory was a process  not a place. Therefore because someone who lived centruies before the reformation believed it was a process like Tim Staples, then Roman Catholicism has an unbroken and historical theology concerning  Purgatory, right? Not so fast. First The challenge was to show that John Tetzel and Pope Leo X thought of purgatory was a process and not a place...I know for a fact that they did say purgatory was a place. Another thing Cyril's words don't exclude a place...I mean where is the Altar in "his holy and tremendous victim lies upon the altar". Where is the altar? It must be in a place somewhere. Okay So now we have Cyril, Tetzel, and Leo disagreeing with Tim Staples  about what purgatory is?! And they can't a be right. Unbroken tradition? Not really.

Today on the DL: Post-Mortem on Last Week's Debates

Yesterday, Dr. James White on his web cast reviewed his debates last week with Michael Brown and Tim Staples. He went through some of the comments and reactions gleaned from the forum on the Catholic Answers web site. I am amazed! I mean it was like people did not listen to the debate. White also did a great job in discussing how the teachings on purgatory have changed in the past 500 years! Today, he posted a video showing him in studio doing yesterdays program.

Then White turned his attention the the debate with Michawel Brown by interacting with some of his statements in his Thursday program, Line of Fire. Listen to White's web cast at the link below

Today on the DL: Post-Mortem on Last Week's Debates

Follow the following link to hear Brown program on Calvinism: Further Reflections on Calvinism

I'm looking forward to Michael Brown and James White discussing Calvinism in full debate.

Debate: James White vs Tim Staples - Debating Purgatory

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On Thursday, January 28, 2010, James White debated Tim Staples on the Dividing Line web cast on the question "Does 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 support the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory?" Staples claims that it does. James White says no. The debate had the following format:

15 minute opening statements (Tim gets to go first)
8 minutes rebuttals
5 minutes cross examination each
8 minute closing statements
Then, they took phone calls for just under 20 minute

I think White did a great job showing that it does not work. Here is what 1st Corinthians 3:10-15:

¹⁰By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. ¹¹For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. ¹²If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, ¹³his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. ¹⁴If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. ¹⁵If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

I think the exchange tells us a lot. The thing that amazed me was Staples arguing that the teaching of Purgatory has not changed in 2000 years! I thought: WHAT???? Then he claimed that purgatory is not a place people go when they die it is the judgement of our lives and he read a quote from the current Pope to back him up. I know during the Reformation - 500 years ago - the Roman Catholic church taught that purgatory was a place where people go to get rid of sins they could not get rid of while they lived. They even taught that if you paid the church - indulgences - one could pay their way and loved ones out of purgatory! If Staples is correct as to what the Roman Catholics teachesd about what purgatory is - then it has changed. You can't claim a 2000-year unbroken tradition, and then ignore what used to be taught. Go ahead and follow the link below to hear the exchange.

I also think that I must comment that his discussion was vastly different than White's discussion with Michael Brown earlier in the week. Staples as mean and kept talking like any intelligent person could see that he was right and White was wrong.  I'm always amazed at how patient James White can be. 

1 Corinthians 3 and Tim Staples on Today's Dividing Line

The God Centered Gospel vs. a Man Centered Gospel

Here is a great discussion from Dr. James White discussing the difference between a message centered around God and His character and His Glory, juxtaposed with one with humanity at its focus. He makes great points. I've found that we need to be careful not to change what Bible really says. Yes, Jesus came to save us. Yes, God loves us. Yes, God values us. Yet we must not value our perceived needs greater than glorifying and obeying God. He truly is all that matters. God is not obligated to save anyone....I'm just grateful He has decided to save those whoput their faith in Him. As I have. Take a listen to Dr. White's arguments for why it matters and how some protestants, not just official Roman Catholic theology changes what the Bible says.

Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body. - 1 Corinthians 6:18-20

The God Centered Gospel vs. a Man Centered Gospel

Why I am Not a Roman Catholic

Alan Kurschner has posted a great article on the Pros Apologian blog on why he isn't a Roman Catholic. He quotes Tim Staples, a Roman Catholic apologist, saying thus:

"The bottom line here is this: Jesus Christ did not suffer and die so that we don't have to. Jesus Christ suffered and died so that our good works offered up in him can be truly pleasing and salvific before God. And indeed, Jesus didn't suffer and die so that we don't have to suffer and die, he suffered and died so that our suffering and death could be salvific."

Kurschner is not taking Staples out of context. Dr James White actually played the comment in context on his webcast recently! Tim Staples actually said this. I don't think it's fair to say that that all Roman Catholics believe this way or would agree with Staples, but from what I understand it is the official view of the Pope and what is taught from the Vatican. I vehemently disagree. Totally not Scriptural. It's important because this is the core of the Gospel that we are admonished and commanded to teach. Staples is postulating a different Gospel. In rebuttal, Kurschner printed Isaiah 52:13–53:11. Staples is not the only one who teaches this. Some Protestants do too. Norman Geisler wrote something similar in his bid to redefine the Calvinism/Arminan debate in his book Chosen be Free. God really wanted to drive the point home that is by Jesus' death our sins are atoned for and by his Resurrection we are justified!

Jesus' sacrifice was complete and perfect for all who their faith in Him! I like how 1 Peter 3: 17 - 19 puts it!

It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison

I've heard that James White will soon debate Tim Staples January 28 at 4pm MST on Purgatory and I hope it will help those who have not recognized that Jesus is the propitiation for our sins and the only offering that has any power to save us. It will most certainly come up.

Why I am Not a Roman Catholic