Image via Wikipedia15 minute opening statements (Tim gets to go first)
8 minutes rebuttals
5 minutes cross examination each
8 minute closing statements
Then, they took phone calls for just under 20 minute
I think White did a great job showing that it does not work. Here is what 1st Corinthians 3:10-15:
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
I think the exchange tells us a lot. The thing that amazed me was Staples arguing that the teaching of Purgatory has not changed in 2000 years! I thought: WHAT???? Then he claimed that purgatory is not a place people go when they die it is the judgement of our lives and he read a quote from the current Pope to back him up. I know during the Reformation - 500 years ago - the Roman Catholic church taught that purgatory was a place where people go to get rid of sins they could not get rid of while they lived. They even taught that if you paid the church - indulgences - one could pay their way and loved ones out of purgatory! If Staples is correct as to what the Roman Catholics teachesd about what purgatory is - then it has changed. You can't claim a 2000-year unbroken tradition, and then ignore what used to be taught. Go ahead and follow the link below to hear the exchange.
I also think that I must comment that his discussion was vastly different than White's discussion with Michael Brown earlier in the week. Staples as mean and kept talking like any intelligent person could see that he was right and White was wrong. I'm always amazed at how patient James White can be.
1 Corinthians 3 and Tim Staples on Today's Dividing Line
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I don't know what debate you were listening to but your personal opinion regarding the purgatory debate does not even come close to what I heard. I think Tim did a great job demonstrating and proving the existence of Purgatory, which has always been part of God's master plan for the salvation of souls. Tim is absolutely correct when he said that the doctrine of purgatory has not changed in the history of Christianity (which is BTW the Catholic Church). Your amazement of what you thought Tim said is incorrect. Tim did not say what you wrote concerning the Christian Church's position on purgatory. Your post exposes your misunderstanidng of true Christian, Catholic doctrine. But that does not surprise me in the least with protestants who continually spout off about what they think the Catholic Church teaches and you, as well as JW are no exceptions
ReplyDeleteOk, Jordon, please correct my misunderstanding. Are you arguing that what I said about purgatory being an actual place like heaven and hell and indulgences was never a part of Roman Catholic Tradition? If not, then can you provide documentation from 500 years ago that it wasn't. I agree Tim Staples and the current Pope do not characterize the Purgatory or limbo the way they used to be taught. If you disagree with that could you please give me some references proving that there is no change. I'll settle for documentation from 500 years ago because you are not going to find it in the Bible, but that would be best. (No fair using Maccabees - it's noncannonical). Thanks for your comments.
ReplyDeleteAfter hearing the debate live, in all honesty, I tend to lean in Mr. Jordan's direction and analysis of the debate. But this will only lend to the conclusion on which I arrived with immediately after the debate. I truly feel that what one's held view before the debate, Catholic or "other," is what one took away from the debate. In other words, no "opinion" trumped an other, both sides will feel they won on their points and explanations. So a tie at best, even at least or nothing won or lost would be my ultimate conclusion. More learning and understanding of the diverging viewpoints is all that was truly gained. Lastly, I must explain the "other" stated before, which is the different Protestant/Evangelical stances on a variety of theological issues. I can say that if one considers the Catholic position to be of opinion (fallible and able to be wrong), then at the very least it is just as valid as White's, Protestant/Evangelicals or any "other" man made assertion of the sacred text. This is course is really the sad point in my contention, because unfortunately if this is correct, we as mere men have no way of truly knowing what the Holy Gospel truly intended to say.
ReplyDeleteWe can know what the Holy Spirit truly intended to say! I would like either Jordon or the anonymous commentor to explain what they thought was wrong about James White's exegesis of 1st Corinthians 3:10-15. And further I would love my challenge to prove that John Tetzel and Pope Leo X thought of purgatory the same way as Tim Staples. If you can provide either than I agree Staples won.
ReplyDeleteI WILL NOT TAKE SIDES OR TRY TO DECIPHER BIBLICAL VERSES BUT I WILL SIMPLY SAY THAT THE GOLD, SILVER,ETC THAT IS BEING STATED IS ABOUT THE SOUL WHICH IS THE ESSENCE OF GOD AND NOT THE TEMPLE IS KEPT IN WHICH IS THE DEMISE OF MAN.
ReplyDeleteHere you Go Marcus, From well before the reformation. Clearly this is a reference to a process, not a place. Straight from Cyril of Jerulalem in the 4th century. It is described as a process, not a place.
ReplyDelete"The Apostolic practice of praying for the dead which passed into the liturgy of the Church, is as clear in the fourth century as it is in the twentieth. St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Mystagogical Catechesis V.9) describing the liturgy, writes: "Then we pray for the Holy Fathers and Bishops that are dead; and in short for all those who have departed this life in our communion; believing that the souls of those for whom prayers are offered receive very great relief, while this holy and tremendous victim lies upon the altar." St. Gregory of Nyssa (P.G., XLVI, col. 524, 525) states that man's weaknesses are purged in this life by prayer and wisdom, or are expiated in the next by a cleansing fire. "When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." About the same time the Apostolic Constitution gives us the formularies used in succouring the dead. "Let us pray for our brethren who sleep in Christ, that God who in his love for men has received the soul of the departed one, may forgive him every fault, and in mercy and clemency receive him into the bosom of Abraham, with those who in this life have pleased God" (P.G. I, col. 1144). Nor can we pass over the use of the diptychs where the names of the dead were inscribed; and this remembrance by name in the Sacred Mysteries--(a practice that was from the Apostles) was considered by Chrysostom as the best way of relieving the dead (Homily 41 on First Corinthians, no. 8). "
@Mike R
ReplyDeleteYou can reads my response/
http://mmcelhaney.blogspot.com/2010/03/historical-teaching-of-purgatory.html
How she going der
ReplyDeleteThe Protestants are more fortunate than the Catholics when it comes to interpreting scripture. The Protestants have 33000 different interpretations and the Catholics only have one.
ReplyDeletenonymous,
ReplyDeleteThe JWs also have one interpretation, as do the Mormons, and the Christian Scientists. Like the RCs, they reject sola scriptura. Clearly, the rejection of sola scriptura is a recipe for theological chaos.
Hi Marcus, Mike R Here.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the response. I can see we are both debate junkies :-)
I will have to break this up into a few parts, as the response is lengthy.
I think you may have miss-read my answer as it related to which response of yours I was responding to. I was responding to this post of yours dated January 30, 2010 at 1:06 AM. I was not clear in which answer of yours I responded to either, hence the confusion.
**Marcus said: “Ok, Jordon, please correct my misunderstanding. Are you arguing that what I said about purgatory being an actual place like heaven and hell and indulgences was never a part of Roman Catholic Tradition? If not, then can you provide documentation from 500 years ago that it wasn't. I agree Tim Staples and the current Pope do not characterize the Purgatory or limbo the way they used to be taught. If you disagree with that could you please give me some references proving that there is no change. I'll settle for documentation from 500 years ago because you are not going to find it in the Bible, but that would be best. (No fair using Maccabees - it's noncannonical). Thanks for your comments.”
In this response, you clearly asked for documentation from 500 years ago. I provided documentation from farther back than that, hence the response citing St. Cyril.
Now, in response to the quote you pulled out if my argument for a process as described by St. Cyril of Jerusalem.
You quoted the following from St. Cyril.
“St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Mystagogical Catechesis V.9) describing the liturgy, writes: "Then we pray for the Holy Fathers and Bishops that are dead; and in short for all those who have departed this life in our communion; believing that the souls of those for whom prayers are offered receive very great relief, while this holy and tremendous victim lies upon the altar."
Since the above statement was lifted out of the full response, I will focus on the above portion that you quoted. In your response, you stated,
“Another thing Cyril's words don't exclude a place...I mean where is the Altar in "his holy and tremendous victim lies upon the altar". Where is the altar? It must be in a place somewhere. Okay So now we have Cyril, Tetzel, and Leo disagreeing with Tim Staples about what purgatory is?! And they can't a be right. Unbroken tradition? Not really.”
This is an inaccurate conclusion, St. Cyril clearly followed with the following statement.
“When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil."
As you can see, the second part of the statement modifies what is stated in metaphorical language in the portion you quoted. This is a clear reference to a process by which the soul is cleansed before approaching God. One would have to take the position telling the author what he meant when he wrote the above passage, as well as assume that there is more in the context of the plain language in which it was written to conclude that not mentioning a “place” is a reference to a (place) vs. (process). Based on the second portion of Cyril’s statement, it is a clear reference to a process, and in agreement with Tim Staple’s position on purgatory.
I also would like to define what the Church father’s meant by the use of the term “altar” when used in the context that Cyril did. To put it in clear context, we have to look at one of Augustine’s quotes as it relates to the death of his mother. ““Lay this body anywhere at all. The care of it must not trouble you. This only I ask of you, that you remember me at the altar of the Lord wherever you are.” Augustine honored the request of his mother, and further quotes, “even in those prayers that were poured forth to Thee while the sacrifice of our redemption was offered for her” (Confessions, IX, 11).” Altar is a reference to the “Sacrifice” at Mass. That is how the early church understood that reference, and that is the context in which the early fathers used the term.
ReplyDeleteI did not address any statements made by Pope Leo X, as this was not the posting I was responding to. In order to respond to that statement, one would have to read everything written about Purgatory by Pope Leo X as well as view any statements as they relate to a “process” vs. a “place” and further analyze the context within which “place” was used. One would then further have to clearly define which statements were being made as Dogmatic teaching vs. the opinion of the man in office (which could start another debate in and of itself).
However, one need only look to the Second Council of Lyons, convened in 1274, and the teaching of Pope Innocent IV in its formal declaration on purgatory. This declaration stated:
“If those who are truly repentant die in charity before they have done sufficient penance for their sins of omission and commission, their souls are cleansed after death in purgatorial or cleansing punishments…The suffrages of the faithful on earth can be of great help in relieving these punishments, as, for instance, the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers, almsgiving, and other religious deeds which, in the manner of the Church, the faithful are accustomed to offer for others of the faithful.”
Again, this is a clear reference to a process that the soul goes through. In fact, no-where in this statement, which is Dogmatic, does it reference or define purgatory as place. Any statement made after, must be interpreted in light of, and in the context of the Dogmatic statements made in previous councils. The issue is that Dr. White is stating that “place” is defined as “descriptive” when in fact, in light of the early writings and councils, it is “prescriptive” of the process, not “descriptive” as it relates to a place in the normative sense.
Please, feel free to cross reference and check my sources.
Thanks and take care!!
What a wonderful dialogue! It's great to hear some intelligent debate about such an important topic.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, I side with Tim Staples. I am also a Catholic. I have listened to the debate many times and I am grateful to both participants for expanding my understanding of the differences between Catholic and Protestant beliefs. Nonetheless, I can find no logical explanation for this 1 Corinthians verse apart from Tim's. This also appeals to my common sense that we are human, we err, and God understands that. I sometimes consider an analogy of visiting the house of someone you respect. Would you take your shoes off before entering so you don't muddy up their house? I know I would.
God bless you all!