Just when I thought no one was worse at understanding what the Bible says than John Loftus, posts like this one start getting posted here too. This is an excerpt from a book that we have written which is near completion, and was inspired by a heated online conversation we had with a well known Christian. In this excerpt, it will be proven that Yahweh, touted as the “ultimate and only true god,” is nothing short of a fickle, and pernicious god, with an added air of loftiness about him when it concerns the subjects of knowledge and wisdom. To prove this, I can show where in the Bible Yahweh views wisdom as being good, and also views it as being bad.
This post doesn't name the "well-known Christian" but I think I will try to track down the whole conversation because I get the feeling that he was almost misunderstood as badly as the Bible itself. For example, she seems to think that when wisdom is described as good and when wisdom is described as good that it's talking about the same kinds of wisdom in the same contexts.
Wisdom is good:
“Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding.” Prov 4:7
“ Blessed is the man who finds wisdom, the man who gains understanding, for she is more profitable than silver and yields better returns than gold.” Proverbs 3:13-15
"if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God who gives it liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him." James 1:5
Wisdom is bad:
“ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief.” Ecclesiastes 1:18
“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." Cor 1:18-19
To add further proof to my claim that the Christian god Yahweh is pernicious fickle and lofty, I will cite additional passages from Corinthians:
"For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him.” Cor 1:25-29
To understand the point I am making, keep in mind the definitions of wisdom :
1. “The quality or state of being wise; knowledge of what is true or right coupled with just judgment as to action; sagacity, discernment, or insight.
2. scholarly knowledge or learning: the wisdom of the schools.
3. wise sayings or teachings; precepts”
I thought that when one is defining a word, one should not use that word in the definition.
These passages show that Christians worship a god who chooses the foolish things just to shame the wise. He did not choose the foolish things because they are good; he chose them because they are NOT good--and he did this to nullify things that are good, just so he could be number one—top dog.
No. You have to answer this question: For what does God choose the foolish things of this world for? And what those things are? She quote the whole passage of 1 Cor 1:25-29 but what does the passage discuss? Knowledge? Is that what is being discussed? No. Paul is making a distinction between the world and people God chose out of the world. No one is good. The point is that God chose them and us even though the world would reject the chosen as unworthy.
Therefore, I can conclude from this that the Christian god Yahweh is fickle, pernicious, and lofty. This is just so bizarre, treacherous, deceitful, and monstrous, perhaps there is no worthy adjective I can use to describe it.
No, there are more appropriate adjectives: wesome and merciful. God takes people who are small, weak, stupid, poor, unworthy, ignored, disenfranchised, shunned - and chooses them to lavish His Love and mercy. God did this to nullify those who arrogantly assume that they are center of everything - not the good. God makes us good.
Just look at the passage again from the Christian Bible, which is the authority of Christianity:
“But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise and the things that are not to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him.”
The bible proves once again not only how contradictory it is, but more importantly, it shows just how fickle and pernicious the Christian god Yahweh is.
So where is the perniciousness? The Contradiction? None Existent. Paul is very clear on what he's talking about. He's referring to conventional "wisdom" of the world - you know: the rejection of God.
I once asked a well known Christian who also happens to be a Mormon,...
Hold up!!!! Mormons are not Christians!
...if the Christian god Yahweh could be considered pernicious, fickle and lofty in regards to wisdom, and this is his part of his reply to me:
“In some Bible verses, God can come off in the manner you suggest. In others He comes off differently. It all depends on which verses you are referring to and what your interpretation is. If you use certain verses of the Bible to prove that God is evil but choose to ignore the verses in the same bible that prove that God is great, you my friend are now cherry picking. “
This well known Christian admitted to me not only that Yahweh is capable of evil, but Yahweh is also pernicious, lofty and fickle.
Mormons don't accept that God created the universe - merely arranging what is already there. They also don't believe the Bible is inerrant so of course they would agree that God comes off differently depending on particular Bible passages.
These are not the qualities of a wise human being, let alone qualities of a supposed “ultimate creator of the universe.”
It is Yahweh himself who admits to being responsible for the evil in the world; therefore it would be logical that he would also be capable of evil, as an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent god could be capable of no less.
There is a difference in being Jealous of someone. That means you want what someone else has that does not belong to you. This the kind of "jealous" that is being referred to in 1 Corinthians 13. There is another kind of "jealousy". This kind is wanting what belongs to you that someone else is trying to take - being jealous for something is not equivalent to being jealous of someone. Many atheists erroneously conflate the two.
Mormons don't accept that God created the universe - merely arranging what is already there. They also don't believe the Bible is inerrant so of course they would agree that God comes off differently depending on particular Bible passages.
These are not the qualities of a wise human being, let alone qualities of a supposed “ultimate creator of the universe.”
Of course those are the qualities of a unregenerate human being - we are all sinners remember? It does not describe the God of the Bible.
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7
Controlling and managing evil does not equal being capable of evil. Asserting it does not make it so.
There are Christians who state that the Bible should not be taken literally, and claim it is nothing but a collection of wise sayings and teachings. These same Christians also say that since the Bible has stood the test of time for over 2000 years, it must also contain some wisdom in it.
What Christians are she talking to? Oh yeah, Mormons.
But as it was stated in the first chapter, Christianity only became popular through brute force, not because it is right in its teachings, or that it is the one true religion.
Something does not become wisdom just because it has been held as a popular belief for thousands of years; just as we now know that even thought the world was thought of as flat for thousands of years, we now accept that it is not.
The flat earth argument is not real good example.
To say that something must be worthy just because of its popularity, would be fallacious. In truth, the Bible contains very little wisdom,...
....as even the 10 commandments which are the supposed moral guidelines that the “perfect” god Yahweh dictated to Moses are inherently flawed. (The real 10 commandments said to be contained in the Ark of the Covenant are in Exodus 34, and contain a verse about no cooking a goat in its mother's milk. Nothing about not raping or molesting children--but cooking goats.)
So because the Law specifically does no mention that it's wrong to rape or molest children, it is flawed? Isn't that silly. On top of that there are about 613 laws in the Torah and not all 613 laws were in the Ark. The Ten we talk about aren't even the greatest commandment and it would include prohibition against raping anyone. Recall that rape was a capital offense.
Even when it comes to Yahweh being all-loving" the Bible is wrong, which the following passages illustrate:
Controlling and managing evil does not equal being capable of evil. Asserting it does not make it so.
There are Christians who state that the Bible should not be taken literally, and claim it is nothing but a collection of wise sayings and teachings. These same Christians also say that since the Bible has stood the test of time for over 2000 years, it must also contain some wisdom in it.
What Christians are she talking to? Oh yeah, Mormons.
But as it was stated in the first chapter, Christianity only became popular through brute force, not because it is right in its teachings, or that it is the one true religion.
It took on a brute nature when Emperor Constantine made it a crime in the Roman Empire not to be a Christian in the 4th Century. It had been a crime before that to be Christian. When you have people coming into the church who have not been born-again of course you are going to see conversion through brute force in many cases but not necessary. It also does not show that Christianity is not true even thought it does not show that Christianity is true either. There is plenty of other evidence we can call upon.
Something does not become wisdom just because it has been held as a popular belief for thousands of years; just as we now know that even thought the world was thought of as flat for thousands of years, we now accept that it is not.
The flat earth argument is not real good example.
To say that something must be worthy just because of its popularity, would be fallacious. In truth, the Bible contains very little wisdom,...
Guess she hasn't read Job, Proverbs, or Ecclesiastes.
....as even the 10 commandments which are the supposed moral guidelines that the “perfect” god Yahweh dictated to Moses are inherently flawed. (The real 10 commandments said to be contained in the Ark of the Covenant are in Exodus 34, and contain a verse about no cooking a goat in its mother's milk. Nothing about not raping or molesting children--but cooking goats.)
So because the Law specifically does no mention that it's wrong to rape or molest children, it is flawed? Isn't that silly. On top of that there are about 613 laws in the Torah and not all 613 laws were in the Ark. The Ten we talk about aren't even the greatest commandment and it would include prohibition against raping anyone. Recall that rape was a capital offense.
Even when it comes to Yahweh being all-loving" the Bible is wrong, which the following passages illustrate:
"Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 1 Corinthians 13:4-7
If, as these passages state, that love is patient and kind, then Yahweh is neither of those things; as he is portrayed as a jealous, angry vengeful god in the Holy Bible:
Love is not jealous of other people. God is not easily provoked to anger but abounding in love in patient. Don't forget that the God gave the people of Noah's time 120 years to repent. He gave the people of Canaan over 400 years to repent before they were wiped out by Joshua and his forces. Lastly he hasn't destroyed us and giving us the time to repent.
“(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.” Deuteronomy 6:15 KJV
The claim that the Christian god Yahweh is an “all-loving” god can be easily refuted using the classic logic formula of “modus tollens”, which is: “If P, then Q. Not Q, therefore, not P.” Using this formula it could be stated that:
P1. If Yahweh is all loving, then he cannot be jealous.
If, as these passages state, that love is patient and kind, then Yahweh is neither of those things; as he is portrayed as a jealous, angry vengeful god in the Holy Bible:
Love is not jealous of other people. God is not easily provoked to anger but abounding in love in patient. Don't forget that the God gave the people of Noah's time 120 years to repent. He gave the people of Canaan over 400 years to repent before they were wiped out by Joshua and his forces. Lastly he hasn't destroyed us and giving us the time to repent.
“(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.” Deuteronomy 6:15 KJV
The claim that the Christian god Yahweh is an “all-loving” god can be easily refuted using the classic logic formula of “modus tollens”, which is: “If P, then Q. Not Q, therefore, not P.” Using this formula it could be stated that:
P1. If Yahweh is all loving, then he cannot be jealous.
P2. Yahweh is not, not jealous.
C. Therefore, Yahweh is not all-loving.
There is a difference in being Jealous of someone. That means you want what someone else has that does not belong to you. This the kind of "jealous" that is being referred to in 1 Corinthians 13. There is another kind of "jealousy". This kind is wanting what belongs to you that someone else is trying to take - being jealous for something is not equivalent to being jealous of someone. Many atheists erroneously conflate the two.
This is just one example of the many contradictory attributes Christians have bestowed upon their god. The evidence of Yahweh's pernicious nature makes it clear that there is little wisdom to be gained by embracing his teachings or emulating his actions.
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Cathy Cooper
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Cathy Cooper
Contradictions that critics introduce so that they pretend the Bible is not true and that they can just ignore god and pretend they have logical reasons to do so. Of all the scriptures that talk about wisdom I'm surprised that the following was omitted:
13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness. - James 3:13-18
Debunking Christianity: Yahweh is Proven to be a Pernicious, Lofty, and Fickle God
