Showing posts with label Total depravity. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Total depravity. Show all posts

Thursday, August 7, 2025

Total Depravity

 


Thursday, September 26, 2019

John 6:44 DeCalvinized

source: https://redeeminggod.com/john-6_44-total-depravity/
Leighton Flower posted the following video attempting to give his take on what John 6:44 really says. He contends that it's not about God the Father irresistibly pulling Elect people to Jesus.







I think that there is a major problem in his arguments First, let's look at two of the verses he site.I will be attempting to get a little more context in the discussion.



 43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. John 6:43,44 


31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
John 12:31,32
The contention Professor Flowers tries to raise is that "draw" in John 6:44 does not mean "to compel" and then tries to run to John 12:32 to try to argue that "draw" means the same thing there as it does in John 6:44 and it should be interpreted as "invited" not "compelled".  Does this make sense?



Well, going to the Greek text could help us in this case.  The word "draw" in John 6:44 is the same as the word translated "draw" in John 12:32. The word has Strong's #1670 - αΌ‘λκύω.  And according to the Thayer's Lexicon entry I got from StudyLight.orgἑλκύω  means the following:




  1. to draw, drag off
  2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel


Which definition fits in  John 6:44 and John 12:32? It's can't be the second definition given the context in both passages are about the source - the power - of the drawing is coming from outside of the drawn. That leaves us with the paraphrase:  "no one is able to come to Christ unless they are dragged by the Father." Same for John 12:32. The word translated "draw" is also used in the context of the pulling in a net. There is no room here for assuming that the dragging has anything to do with those being dragged. Jesus even says in John 6:44 that the same ones the Father drags to him is the same ones that he will save. No one who comes will be lost and no one who is drawn by the Father will fail to come. 

This is the problem with trying to read the context of John 12:32 back on 6:44. Jesus is not talking about the exact same thing. In John 6:44, Jesus is telling why the religious leaders are not believing Him.  As for John 12:32, Jesus it talking about his crucifixion and how it will be through his death all people would be dragged towards him but He did not clearly say they would be raised up. Therefore, Jesus is not talking about the same "drawing".

The word "draw" shows up 8 times in the King James Version. One of the great things about the StudyLight.org site is that when you use the online Lexicon it tells you how many times the words appears in the King James Version and the New American Standard Version.  Here are the 8 passages from the King James Version:

No man can (5736come (5629to me, except the Father which hath sent (5660me draw (5661him: and I will raise him up (5692) at the last day

And I, if I be lifted up (5686from the earth, will draw (5692all men unto me.

Then Simon Peter having (5723) a sword drew (5656it, and smote (5656) the high priest's servant, and cut off (5656his right ear *. The servant's name was (5713Malchus.

And he said (5627) unto them, Cast (5628) the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find (5692). They cast (5627therefore, and now they were not able (5656) to draw (5658it for the multitude of fishes.

Simon Peter went up (5627), and drew (5656) the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was (5752not the net broken (5681).

Some anti-Calvinists have gone as far as trying to interpret the "drawing" as "gently wooing". They claim that God  "woos" us through His loving kindness such that we choose to love and serve Him. No way do any of these eight passages have "gentle wooing" in mind while the drawing is happening.  Outside the Bible, the word was used in the first century to describe pulling a bucket water out of well. Good luck trying to woo water in a bucket.


Tuesday, September 24, 2019

Dead like Lazarus or the Prodigal?

I have noticed several videos from Leighton Flowers in which he concisely explains why he believes Calvinism is wrong regarding specific scripture passages and arguments. In this video he, tackled the argument many Calvinists favor in that many use the story of God raising Lazarus from the dead ((John 11) as a picture of how people are dead to the things of God and unable to respond to God's offer of Salvation through Jesus without being regenerated by God first. He tries to argue that Jesus' Parable of the Lost Son (Luke 15: 11-32) is a more apt comparison. In this article I am going to use terms and jargon that are common part so this discussion. If any of them are unfamiliar, please feel free to ask about them - or where you can get more information.


 Professor Flowers raises these arguments as an objection to the way many Calvinists view the concepts of "Original Sin" and "Total Depravity".  He is a Christian so he does not reject either but he does have the view point that although people are sinners and undeserving of Salvation, we still retain the same kind of Free Will that Adam and Eve possessed before they fell under the curse of sin and death. Although he agrees that we are sinner but does not believe that makes us unable to respond to Jesus' out-stretched hands to us.

This leads Professor Flowers to argue against the idea that physical death does not mirror the spiritual death of unrepented sinners. The problem with all parables and symbols when it comes to the nature God's relationship with humanity is always going to be incomplete. It is impossible to come up with a single simple picture capturing it all at once. That is why I think Jesus told so many different Parables so we can look at things from different perspectives.

The reason why many people look at the death of Lazarus as a picture for what being dead in sin is like is because scripture describes the lost as being "dead in sin".

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. - Ephesians 2:1-3

The way this reads to me is as a description of being caught in something that you can't get free of and so hopelessly entrapped you don't even know you are caged. 

Jesus describes people in this state as being enslaved. And although I have been in Christ for many years I did not realize that this had been my state to that degree before I was in Christ.


Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. - John 8:34

This is why I think the scripture is saying the sinner is more than just separated from God by their sins. When Professor Flowers appeals to scriptures about how believers should be separated from sin considering themselves dead to sin (ie Romans 6:11) I do not think that this means the same thing as  being "dead in sin" but describe being separated from sin - which describe the Elect of God. The Elect are those who have attained salvation by faith. The argument comes up when we ask, "where did this faith come from - a gift from God or grasped by our own free will?"  I am going to skip the question right now about whether this "will" is just described as "libertarian" and/or "autonomous" because it should be covered and distinguished in greater detail not just conflated together. It matters.

L Spada Regreso del hijo prΓ³digo Museo del Louvre.jpg
Instead, I think it's important to point out that I think Prodigal son parable should not be used here. if the Father in the story represents God, then one who had always been sinner  would not be a son. This isn't the story of a sinner having a "come to Jesus" moment but of a back-slider coming home and how other believers should treat the ones that are coming back.The man had been a son. He knew his father not coming to home for the first time. A sinner coming to Jesus for the first time becomes adopted not having been a part of the family before that time of adoption. Such a person was deserving of the wrath of God.

Again, the reason why all of this resonates so strongly for me was that I missed the part that this was me. I would read these passages for  years and never once connected it to me. I knew it described sinners deserving of hell, but I never really had owned that for me. I mean I was a sinner and I repented but never really thought I deserved to go to hell...that next guy sure....but me? Hitler? Of course. White colonist raping, stealing, enslaving and murdering my ancestors? Oh I just knew they should all burn,  Me? Nah.  Come to find out that the scripture was talking about me too.

Here is one of many scriptures about our inability to turn to Christ on our own terms and our own power.

Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. - Romans 8:5-8

Sorry, Professor Flowers, but in that analogy of trying to climb up the rope to safety given in the video does not fit the above scripture. Paul points out that if  you are living according to your flesh you are not just dead to (or separated from)  the things of  God, you are dead - unable to even see the rope that have been let down for you let alone to climb it. Not just that - we are so hopelessly depraved we don't even want to get out of the situation. Even the desire to be free is a gift from God because without it we have nothing but enmity (as the King James Version puts it) towards God. Like Joseph Stalin on his death bed, we shake our fist at God with hatred and a rebellious heart.

I think that there is a modern parable that can be used here: The Matrix from the  Matrix movies. Remember how  Morpheus explains to Neo how the people who are still plugged into the Matrix are a danger to them? Sounds like being trapped in sin to me. 



So, how is it that any human being gets past ourselves and makes it to God? It's a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit. This discussion is far from over, but I think that describing the event of human beings coming to Jesus and obtaining salvation  - freedom from sin and death -  as being just as miraculous as Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead is a very good comparison.

Tuesday, June 11, 2013

High Five of the Day - Calvinistic "Quotes": Man's idolatrous estimation of his self as

This is an awesome quote:

Nothing quite reveals man's idolatrous estimation of his self as being preeminent then his acceptance of Christ dying for sins of others while he refuses to accept that men should die for their own sins!
~ Julius Mickel

This point is what separates born-again Christians from all other people - it is the recognition that salvation is not because we deserve it - we deserve death (physical death and eternal separation from God) because of our sins. Jesus saved us from the consequences of what we did, do, and will do.

Calvinistic "Quotes": Man's idolatrous estimation of his self as
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Thursday, June 9, 2011

Responding to Used Tampons ~ ExChristian.Net

I found out about a particular article by one who goes by the name eveningmeadows ~ . It is interesting because from it we can learn a lot about how unbelievers really look at particular Bible verses. My annotations are in red.

Years ago when I was still at church, the pastor was thinking of adding a big addition. No one knew he was thinking about this at the time. He began grooming young couples in the church to take on leadership roles. One Easter, one of the young men was teaching Sunday morning bible study before Easter.

eveningmeadows ~ does not realize how much of a blessing it is to have a pastor who wants to groom young people to take on leadership roles! Not all churches do that, but they should!

A few things brought this story to mind. One was a comment by some of the posters on this site that the writers of the bible seemed to be preoccupied with women’s biological functions. Then Easter came along, and I remembered this guy and his Sunday school class.

He did the usual boring study on the easter story, how jesus died on the cross, how he was nailed and suffered for our sins. He brought up the bible verse, Isaiah 64:6, that our righteous acts are like filthy rags. He went on to explain that “filthy rags” were menstrual rags that women used for their monthly periods. I had never heard that before, and it stayed in my mind.


6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away. -Isaiah 64:6


Two things. First, if this person thinks that Jesus' work on the Cross is boring, it makes me wonder what this person thought about that when they were in church? Also makes me wonder if they understood what sin is and what Jesus really did for us. Second, I hadn't always known about the cultural context of the passage, but I have known about it for about 15 years. And what this little bit of information drives home just how little of our selves are responsible for the good that we do manage to do. It's a striking and jarring image and I too immediately thought of a used Tampon.

I, of course, have grown up where our “feminine hygiene products”, are discreetly packaged in nice pink or blue boxes. Some packaging is more snappy than others, but it’s all made to be very low key so as not to draw attention to the real purpose of what’s in the box. They’re arranged by an absorbency rating, by plastic for comfort, or cardboard applicators for those with a green streak. One should be able to quickly run up and grab what you want without drawing too much attention to oneself while in the feminine hygiene isle. The only complicated aspect of the whole thing is whether to go generic or name brand, the difference being cost.

Age of wonders, eh?

Back to the story. Around Easter, this bible study came to mind, and as I have a lot of empty time driving the kids around, I started to dwell on this “filthy rags” aspect of the whole study. I had heard this verse forever, and had even used it as a witnessing tool to explain how sinful we are by nature. But, I finally put the filthy rags part together with the feminine hygiene part. Was god actually saying that our righteous acts are nothing more to him than used tampons?!

Yup, that is exactly what I think the verse is saying. We are really that bad. We are really that far off from where we are supposed to be. OF course it's not talking about our ontological value to God just the way we live our lives.

You can imagine my shock and dismay at my discovery after being a bornagainer for twenty years, and out of the church for almost ten. Why had I never put this together before?

I'm not sure. But I am amazed at how a mind controlled by the nature Isaiah is describing processes this information. You can't become unborn again no more than a baby's natural birth can be undone.

God sees our righteous deeds before salvation as used tampons. Why don’t we have a problem with this kind of comparison in the bible? If we were to hear that our kids were told by their teacher that all their efforts to get a decent grade in their class, were nothing but dirty tampons to this teacher, we would be down at the school in an instant talking to this teacher and the principal. If we were being reviewed at work for a pay raise, and we were told that our efforts to do our job to the best of our ability were nothing but dirty tampons, we would be very upset. If others heard that our spouse was calling us dirty tampons, we would consider that verbal abuse. And we would never use that description when talking in polite company. And yet, we hear this again and again in church, over and over throughout the years, and never really think about what the teachings in the bible are really telling us. We are all nothing more than dirty tampons. Something disgusting, something of no worth. Just something headed to the garbage. The verse has been sanitized so the original meaning isn’t clear to us anymore. We just read it over, and think of course we’re sinners, and don’t even blink.

eveningmeadows ~ used to be in the reformed church so I am confused by the objection being raised. It's a given in the Reformed tradition that everyone is going to hell by default. If God does nothing to change your heart, hell is your destination - yup, Gehenna. It's not abusive. Look at where the mind goes and misses the conclusion that the Bible draws. Although our good acts are a stench in the nostrils of God, God still condescends in the person of Jesus Christ to left those who put their faith in Him out of that garbage heap and in His Mercy and Grace and out of Love bestows us gifts that we do not deserve. Although we are THAT bad, God is THAT good. I'm not sure if I would use the blunt language such as "On your best day, your righteousness is worth no more than a used tampon." over the pulpit because there are much less crude ways of saying it.

I read this now and think how could I have allowed myself to be verbally bashed again and again, told what a horrible person I was, and just shrug it off as biblical truth? It’s the constant year in and year out brainwashing that allows us to read verses like this and read about abuse towards women and children and never think about it or question it. We’re horrible, retched [wretched] sinners, deserving of never ending hell fire simply because we don’t follow a certain belief system that claims it has “the truth”. It’s okay to look at others and their efforts to be decent people and see their efforts as used tampons. If we follow this belief system, we, of course, are better than all those people.

I think that is why the "used tampon" image is so useful because it catches one attention and can't just be brushed aside. The Bible does describe abuse against women and children but it never tells us that you are righteous because you abuse women and children. If the good you do equates to a used tampon, what do you think of the value of the bad you do? The verse eveningmeadows ~ is pretty clear. It's not just talking about some of us. It refers to all of us...even those who are born-again believers. That is why Jesus had to come and die. He is the only one worthy enough to pay for our sins. None of us can do enough good to repay the debt our sin demands.

I’m sure that there are other interpretations to this verse. I really don’t care, that’s not my point. It’s the idea that we can become so numb to the abuses in the bible, that we just gloss over the whole thing. In order to keep believing the story so we can be saved from never ending hell fire, we have to overlook many horrors in the bible. We have to shut our brains off, and never question or say that just doesn’t seem right.

I think eveningmeadows ~ has interpreted the verse rightly, but misses some of the conclusions that must follow. There is no need to turn off your brain or question if this is true. Let's try that for a minute. Look at your own life. Can anyone of us say that we have never lied or even thought about lying. Have we ever failed to do what we knew was right? Have we ever failed to be kind to another person when it was in our power to do so. Okay, if you say you are without sin, you are lying and you know you are lying. If you ever disobeyed your parent(s) or speeded while you are driving you have failed to meet the standard that the Bible says - regardless of if you think the Bible is the word of God or not.

After all these years, I’m still shocked by what I simply overlooked as truth in the bible.

Therefore, if you know you have transgressed the law and it doesn't really matter if you think there is a God to hold you accountable or not because what you have to answer is "Should you get a way with the wrong you have done?" You know you have made mistakes. You know you have done wrong. You have hurt people. Should you get away with them? People have hurt you. Should they get away with it? Some of this has happened despite the best of intentions. Should you get off? Deep down we know that if we want others to pay for harming us, we can't expect to not pay for hurting others ourselves. So what are you going to do? Without Jesus, what propitiation can you possible hope to offer to satisfy your debt to your creator? This is a truth that eveningmeadows ~ has obviously overlooked and considering that on our best day our good works count no more than a used tampon, its a dangerous truth to overlook.

Used Tampons ~ ExChristian.Net
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Sunday, March 13, 2011

Calvinistic Cartoons: Random Comic Panel

Eddie Eddings posted this great acrostic for "SUPER" summarizing Reformed Theology.

Is your doctrine a "SUPER" one?
Soul in Depravity
Unconditional Election
Particular Redemption
Eternally Secure
Resistance Transformed into Insistence

Want to know the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism? Look at one of the comments:

Angry Arminian said...
W - Will is free!  I  - I elect myself! M - My decision! P  - Power to choose! Y  - You might not make it! And don't nobody call it "man-centered"
I did change the image of Superman, Eddie used in his original post but the text was too good not change.

Calvinistic Cartoons: Random Comic Panel
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Friday, September 24, 2010

Brennon's Thoughts: Verses All Arminians Should Know Part 7

Brennon has posted a great list of scriptures that support Arminianism. I'm not certain that they support the Arminian position. Rather than try to responding to them all at once, I will break them down into several posts based on how the list is presented.This topic interests me because I really wanna  I know what the Bible says. Here is part 7 regarding the idea that Bible teaches that sin is not from God.. I don't think that there has ever been a Christian who would try to argue that God is responsible for our sins.


Verses showing sin is not from God
 24 But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward and not forward.

This true of every single human being! We have all done this. It's describing the state of men. If anything
I view the passage teaching about the "Total Depravity" of humanity.
  13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.


I totally agree. Neither Total Depravity nor Determinism lays the blame for sin at the feet of God. We are responsible for our sins and following the evil inclinations of our own hearts. 
16For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world.

Amen. Total agreement. I don't think that these verses refute Reformed theology at all.  Reformed Theologians do not argue that the origin of  a man's sin comes from God. Rather it is our salvation that totally comes from God. The sin part - the need for that salvation - is because of what we are. We own that. I think most Christians agree that God can use the consequences of our sins to accomplish his purposes given:



Remember what Joseph told his brothers who some 30 years earlier sold him into slavery:

19 But Joseph said to them, "Don't be afraid. Am I in the place of God? 20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. 21 So then, don't be afraid. I will provide for you and your children." And he reassured them and spoke kindly to them.  - Genesis 50:19-21


What about Romans 8:28-29

 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. - Romans 8:28-29


However this does not mean that God forces anyone to do evil. We know that God doesn't force people to do evil. I'd argue that on our own evil is all we are capable of. When we do a good, selfless thing - believers and non-believers alike - it is because of God's grace
    Brennon's Thoughts: Verses All Arminians Should Know

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