Image via WikipediaHere you Go Marcus, From well before the reformation. Clearly this is a reference to a process, not a place. Straight from Cyril of Jerulalem in the 4th century. It is described as a process, not a place. "The Apostolic practice of praying for the dead which passed into the liturgy of the Church, is as clear in the fourth century as it is in the twentieth. St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Mystagogical Catechesis V.9) describing the liturgy, writes: "Then we pray for the Holy Fathers and Bishops that are dead; and in short for all those who have departed this life in our communion; believing that the souls of those for whom prayers are offered receive very great relief, while this holy and tremendous victim lies upon the altar." St. Gregory of Nyssa (P.G., XLVI, col. 524, 525) states that man's weaknesses are purged in this life by prayer and wisdom, or are expiated in the next by a cleansing fire. "When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." About the same time the Apostolic Constitution gives us the formularies used in succouring the dead. "Let us pray for our brethren who sleep in Christ, that God who in his love for men has received the soul of the departed one, may forgive him every fault, and in mercy and clemency receive him into the bosom of Abraham, with those who in this life have pleased God" (P.G. I, col. 1144). Nor can we pass over the use of the diptychs where the names of the dead were inscribed; and this remembrance by name in the Sacred Mysteries--(a practice that was from the Apostles) was considered by Chrysostom as the best way of relieving the dead (Homily 41 on First Corinthians, no. 8). "
First I'm glad that Mike saw fit to run down a reference however it is not clear to me where the referenece is form. I'll five mike the benefit of the doubt and assume that it is a real reference. Because Mike focusedm on Cyril I will to. The quote says:
St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Mystagogical Catechesis V.9) describing the liturgy, writes: "Then we pray for the Holy Fathers and Bishops that are dead; and in short for all those who have departed this life in our communion; believing that the souls of those for whom prayers are offered receive very great relief, while this holy and tremendous victim lies upon the altar."
Mike claims that Cyril believed that purgatory was a process not a place. Therefore because someone who lived centruies before the reformation believed it was a process like Tim Staples, then Roman Catholicism has an unbroken and historical theology concerning Purgatory, right? Not so fast. First The challenge was to show that John Tetzel and Pope Leo X thought of purgatory was a process and not a place...I know for a fact that they did say purgatory was a place. Another thing Cyril's words don't exclude a place...I mean where is the Altar in "his holy and tremendous victim lies upon the altar". Where is the altar? It must be in a place somewhere. Okay So now we have Cyril, Tetzel, and Leo disagreeing with Tim Staples about what purgatory is?! And they can't a be right. Unbroken tradition? Not really.
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Hi Marcus,
ReplyDeleteApologies, I was not sure where exactly to post my response, there is no intention of spamming.
Thank you for the response. I can see we are both debate junkies :-)
I will have to break this up into a few parts, as the response is lengthy.
I think you may have miss-read my answer as it related to which response of yours I was responding to. I was responding to this post of yours dated January 30, 2010 at 1:06 AM. I was not clear in which answer of yours I responded to either, hence the confusion.
**Marcus said: “Ok, Jordon, please correct my misunderstanding. Are you arguing that what I said about purgatory being an actual place like heaven and hell and indulgences was never a part of Roman Catholic Tradition? If not, then can you provide documentation from 500 years ago that it wasn't. I agree Tim Staples and the current Pope do not characterize the Purgatory or limbo the way they used to be taught. If you disagree with that could you please give me some references proving that there is no change. I'll settle for documentation from 500 years ago because you are not going to find it in the Bible, but that would be best. (No fair using Maccabees - it's noncannonical). Thanks for your comments.”
In this response, you clearly asked for documentation from 500 years ago. I provided documentation from farther back than that, hence the response citing St. Cyril.
Now, in response to the quote you pulled out if my argument for a process as described by St. Cyril of Jerusalem.
You quoted the following from St. Cyril.
“St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Mystagogical Catechesis V.9) describing the liturgy, writes: "Then we pray for the Holy Fathers and Bishops that are dead; and in short for all those who have departed this life in our communion; believing that the souls of those for whom prayers are offered receive very great relief, while this holy and tremendous victim lies upon the altar."
Since the above statement was lifted out of the full response, I will focus on the above portion that you quoted. In your response, you stated,
“Another thing Cyril's words don't exclude a place...I mean where is the Altar in "his holy and tremendous victim lies upon the altar". Where is the altar? It must be in a place somewhere. Okay So now we have Cyril, Tetzel, and Leo disagreeing with Tim Staples about what purgatory is?! And they can't a be right. Unbroken tradition? Not really.”
This is an inaccurate conclusion, St. Cyril clearly followed with the following statement.
“When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil."
As you can see, the second part of the statement modifies what is stated in metaphorical language in the portion you quoted. This is a clear reference to a process by which the soul is cleansed before approaching God. One would have to take the position telling the author what he meant when he wrote the above passage, as well as assume that there is more in the context of the plain language in which it was written to conclude that not mentioning a “place” is a reference to a (place) vs. (process). Based on the second portion of Cyril’s statement, it is a clear reference to a process, and in agreement with Tim Staple’s position on purgatory.
I also would like to define what the Church father’s meant by the use of the term “altar” when used in the context that Cyril did. To put it in clear context, we have to look at one of Augustine’s quotes as it relates to the death of his mother. ““Lay this body anywhere at all. The care of it must not trouble you. This only I ask of you, that you remember me at the altar of the Lord wherever you are.” Augustine honored the request of his mother, and further quotes, “even in those prayers that were poured forth to Thee while the sacrifice of our redemption was offered for her” (Confessions, IX, 11).” Altar is a reference to the “Sacrifice” at Mass. That is how the early church understood that reference, and that is the context in which the early fathers used the term.
ReplyDeleteI did not address any statements made by Pope Leo X, as this was not the posting I was responding to. In order to respond to that statement, one would have to read everything written about Purgatory by Pope Leo X as well as view any statements as they relate to a “process” vs. a “place” and further analyze the context within which “place” was used. One would then further have to clearly define which statements were being made as Dogmatic teaching vs. the opinion of the man in office (which could start another debate in and of itself).
However, one need only look to the Second Council of Lyons, convened in 1274, and the teaching of Pope Innocent IV in its formal declaration on purgatory. This declaration stated:
“If those who are truly repentant die in charity before they have done sufficient penance for their sins of omission and commission, their souls are cleansed after death in purgatorial or cleansing punishments…The suffrages of the faithful on earth can be of great help in relieving these punishments, as, for instance, the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers, almsgiving, and other religious deeds which, in the manner of the Church, the faithful are accustomed to offer for others of the faithful.”
Again, this is a clear reference to a process that the soul goes through. In fact, no-where in this statement, which is Dogmatic, does it reference or define purgatory as place. Any statement made after, must be interpreted in light of, and in the context of the Dogmatic statements made in previous councils. The issue is that Dr. White is stating that “place” is defined as “descriptive” when in fact, in light of the early writings and councils, it is “prescriptive” of the process, not “descriptive” as it relates to a place in the normative sense.
Please, feel free to cross reference and check my sources.
Thanks and take care!!