Debunking Christianity: The 25 Most Influential Living Atheists
Wednesday, January 12, 2011
Debunking Christianity: The 25 Most Influential Living Atheists
Debunking Christianity: The 25 Most Influential Living Atheists
Dietrich Bonhoeffer – the Christian man and the secular myth | True Freethinker
Dietrich Bonhoeffer – the Christian man and the secular myth | True Freethinker
ID.Plus: Peter S. Williams on '5 Flaws In The Thinking Of The New Atheists'
ID.Plus: Peter S. Williams on '5 Flaws In The Thinking Of The New Atheists'
"Celebrate (He Lives)" lyrics by FRED HAMMOND
I know he lives (woah)
I believe he lives (ooh)
I'm sure he lives (woah)
I'm sure he lives
(How ya'll doin today?)
I know he lives (The savior lives)
The savior lives (ooh, oh)
It's time to celebrate the savior and his worth
Let's shout because we know he lives and we are certain
His love has set us free our enemies defeated
If with me you agree... come on and lift up your hands
[chorus]
Everybody lift your hands if you know that Jesus is worthy
Open up and give him praise let's do it in a hurry
If you love him let's glorify in the song and in the dance
You know the savior lives come on and lift up your hands
To understand just why we praise let me tell you how it all went down
The news spread so very fast people came from miles around
This would be the day Christ would be crucified
He took his last breath he hung his head and he died
They took my savior down from off that rugged cross
They laid him in a tomb it seemed all hope was truly lost
But the third day came along and broke the rhythm of life
The stone was rolled away an angel proudly proclaimed
[bridge]
He lives (He lives) He lives
(Christ is risen) Christ is risen just like he said
(Our Lord and savior) The Lord and saviors' no longer dead
Rejoice and celebrate He lives He lives-Jesus, He's alive!
[chorus x2]
[bridge x3]
"Celebrate (He Lives)" lyrics by FRED HAMMOND
Vashawn Mitchell - Nobody Greater Video
[Verse 1:]
I climbed up to the highest mountain
I looked all around, couldn't find nobody
Went down into the deepest valley
Looked all around down there, couldn't find nobody
I went across the deep blue sea
Couldn't find one to compare... to your grace, your love, your mercy
Nobody greater... nobody greater than you
[Chorus]
Searched all over... couldn't find nobody
I looked high and low... still couldn't find nobody
Nobody greater... nobody greater no... nobody greater than you
[Verse 2:]
Nobody can heal... like you can
Oh most holy one you are the Great I Am
Awesome in all your ways and mighty is your hand
You are He who carried out redemption's plan
You are He who carried out redemption's plan
[Chorus: x2]
Searched all over... couldn't find nobody
I looked high and low... still couldn't find nobody
Nobody greater... nobody greater... nobody greater than you
Nobody greater... nobody greater... nobody greater than you [repeat, adlib and fade]
Vashawn Mitchell - Nobody Greater Video
Can A Metamorphesis Be Reversed? Examining Apostasy. - Responding back
Well crap, I thought those questions were posed by Hugh, not you Marcus. Oh well, that will teach me to pay more attention.
I can tell by your comments, that you need to pay more attention to not only who addresses you but to what they actually said. If denominations differ so much why couldn't you tell a difference between what I believe and what Hugh believes?
Marcus: He keeps saying that, but never has managed to proven it.
Right, just like I can’t prove Noah fought off our evil slug overlords on Pangea 175 million years ago…
Good thing the Bible doesn't say Noah fought off evil slug overlords. Therefore it has no bearing on if the Bible is right or not. Try again.
Me: But, if I go to the trouble of answering these questions for you, I'll expect a description of your "born again" experience. Fair's fair.
Again, I thought I was responding to Hugh, I already know about your “born again” experience.
I don't think you do because you said you think it's no different than your own.
Marcus: It's crime and violence against the character of God himself.
Right, so how’s that differ from “deviation from godliness”?
"deviation from godliness" fails to capture how truly bad sin is. It makes it sound like you jay walked or walked on grass when there was a sign telling you not to walk on it. It shows that you don't look at sin the way God does...maybe you never did. Sin (from failing to help someone when you can help them to mass murder and everything in between) is that bad that hell can only be the logical result.
Marcus: I was actually asking about if you consider yourself a sinner now?
And I told you I would be responding as how I understood these things from when I was a Christian. Obviously you know that I don’t believe in sin as a metaphysical thing now, but of course there are standards.
Are you a sinner according to those standards?
Marcus: the question was more directed to your condition today.
Right, see above. Pretty much everything you wrote on this, from my perspective now as an atheist, is just gibberish.
Are you morally culpable for transgressing standards today?
Marcus: “Didn't you ever pray for guidance? Didn't you ever pray for wisdom? Didn't you ever pray to be a blessing to other people? Have you ever asked God to give you patience?
Of course.
Did you get it? What about the other questions I asked about prayer. You really didn't give a full answer.
Marcus: Everyone knows that if you are honest most of the time you have no idea what you are doing….
I think I asked for specific details of instances that could not be explained naturally. Oh well, to be fair I thought I was asking that of Hugh.
I did give such instances at the end. The fact that I have experienced such instances and you haven't shows that you don't know what it's like to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or to be born-again.
Marcus: I'm not sure what your confusion is here, Ryan. Where did I say you should only go on your feelings to relate to God? When did I say that you should only use head knowledge to relate to God? I didn't.
If I say I knew scripture (I did and do), you’ll say I only had head knowledge, if I say I had a very emotional experience (I did) you’ll say I only had a “feeling”. It’s not honest on your part and answering these questions is a no win situation on mine, but hey, you can believe whatever you want, and this helps you continue to believe.
No I wouldn't. I think that you did know something about scripture. I am certain that you had very emotional experience. Those things don't add up to be born-again. The Bible says the same things about demons - they know scripture and they have emotional experiences. Also if you think those things were real why do you think that they weren't real enough to sustain your faith? You are in a no win situation because you disagree with the Bible.
Marcus: You really didn't describe your born-again experience.
Of course I did.
You said you gained head knowledge and had an emotional experience and had prayers you thought were answered. If you think that this all a born-again experience is - you were cheated.
Marcus: What sins did you stop doing after your received Jesus as your Lord and Savior?
Too many to count, drinking, smoking pot and “fornication” for three.
When you gave up Christ did you go back to those sins or any of the things you used to do.
Marcus: Did you have an insatiable hunger to read the Bible and learn more about God?
Yes.
What happened to that? And given what you have said about the Bible, I find it difficult to believe you ever learned anything about his character and who God is.
Marcus: I had a huge problem with the fact that slavery had been an institution in the United States - so much so that I thought that any white person who owned slaves had gone straight to hell. I was convicted by this when God made me realize that this thought was not Biblical. It's not part of the Gospel.
Yeah, I could have told you that… I’m pretty sure divine intervention wasn’t what made you realize that. Maybe you just grew up a little?
Yes, it was God. Given how you and other atheist think its so horrible that God does not explicitly condemn slavery in the Bible, I would think that such an attitude says "Those people deserve to be in hell (if there is a hell), not me. They owned slaves." Our society has gone out its way to condemn them and thinks of them as backward and immoral. As if we are better than them. We are not. It's harder to see that as a descendant of slaves and still living with the results of their actions. Somethings come easier to see than other things. Those things take a revelation from God.
Marcus: The word the Bible uses to say "transformed" is the same word we get "metamorphosis" from. Ryan, you claim to know biology better than I do. Therefore you know that there is not a single change described in biology as a metamorphosis that is reversible.
You will need to substantiate your assertion that the born again experience qualifies as a “metamorphosis”, and obviously it’s not a biological metamorphosis so I’ve already got that working against you.
How can it not be a metamorphosis of mind and attitude? You go from not caring or thinking of God at least and hating God at worst to handing over your life and submitting yourself and all you have control over to Him. Given that you presented yourself as a living sacrifice then crawled off the altar and now refuse to get back on that altar points to that your mind may never had been transformed. I know of sick people who became well after they became born-again so I would not be so quick to discount the biological component. And we will be getting new bodies when Jesus returns - completing the metamorphosis to what we have always intended to be (see 1 Corinthians 15 - I thought you said you knew your Bible).
Marcus: I have to wonder how much weight did it hold for you when you were a "Christian".
A lot. I’ve read it cover to cover twice and cannot tell you how many times I’ve read the Gospels and various books.
But did it change you? And why doesn't it hold any weight now. Originally, I posted several verses that tell explicitly if you leave Christ you was never a part. Did you ever understand them that way? Either you are wrong or the Bible is wrong. You both can't be right. When you were a Christian what verses bothered you and how did reconcile them with yourself? Did you say well, "I guess I'm wrong" or where they the catalyst for what you are now?
I said ”But, if I go to the trouble of answering these questions for you, I'll expect a description of your "born again" experience. Fair's fair.”
Marcus said ”It'll be at the very end of this in red.”
You never did get around to this, but that’s ok because I thought I was asking that of Hugh and you and I already discussed yours a while back and it closely resembled mine.
Yup, you really didn't pay attention. I explained about what sanctification is and how it plays a part in the on-going born-again experience and I never heard you discuss that. It's been essential to my walk with Jesus. Without it I don't know how you can stay committed to God. Because evil and hateful of godliness is what we are by default. God has to change us so that we can be in relationship with us. God is not going to change. God doesn't have to change.
Marcus: “It seems to me that if you reject the scriptures as being true now, you actually prove that they are indeed true because you are fulfilling them. They are describing you.”
Wow, the bible contains psychology and insights into human nature… amazing… Do me a favor, presuppose the bible is not true, pretend it’s the book of Mormon, the Qu’ran or something. Would you be amazed that it included some passages explaining away the fact that some people would not believe it?
We can demonstrate that the Book of Mormon and the Qur'an are wrong. Putting them alongside the Bible as being equal makes me wonder even if your really know what is any of the three. All three conflict with one another. Either they are all wrong or one of them wrong. No two of them can be simultaneously true. Do me a favor and make an intelligent argument for why you think the Bible is not true. No need to bring up the Qur'an or the Book of Mormon. We agree that they are wrong. The bottom line is you can't even live up to your own standards of right and wrong. How do you fix it?
What had happen' was.....: Can A Metamorphesis Be Reversed? Examining Apostasy.
Can A Metamorphesis Be Reversed? Examining Apostasy.
Ryan, if the Bible is true these two things is true:
1. You never knew Jesus the Christ because you left
2. A born-again believer can't become unborn-again anymore than a butterfly can turn back into caterpillar.
Let's go back to first things.
1. Do you know what sin is? Define it.
2. Are you a sinner? If you apply the Biblical standard and honesty you know you have to say you are a sinner, You cannot even keep the moral standard you have set for yourself.
3. If you are a sinner what do you give God as Propitiation? What about when fail your family and friends? If you are accountable how do y0ou make up your mistakes when you don't do what you are supposed to do?
4. As a "Christian" if you were walking around feeling guilt and pain over your past or present or future, you were definitely doing it wrong.
5. If you now say that prayer does not work and when you were "saved" for 25 yrs you only thought it worked, I've got to say given points 1-4 maybe God just ignored your prayers. That's not saying that God doesn't hear prayers from non-Christians because he does and can choose to grant them what they pray for, but God ignoring you or just outright saying "No" might explain your experience.
6. If you were saved it would mean having a relationship with God. Not just a "feeling" but a back and forth relationship. You claim that you didn't. That flies against my experience and every born-again Christian I have ever known.
7. Head Knowledge is not enough. Necessary but in no way sufficient.
Ryan Anderson answered me in the following way with my comments.
Right, because the bible isn't true, at least not about the supernatural stuff.
I'll answer these later tonight, and I'll answer from the perspective of a believer because apparently you can't quite get your arms around the notion that my beliefs now do not reflect my beliefs from a past period.
At least he kept his promise to respond.
But, if I go to the trouble of answering these questions for you, I'll expect a description of your "born again" experience. Fair's fair.
OK, here you go. Also I have no doubt that some minor deviation from how your particular sect would answer some of these will give you license to yell "False Convert!!!"
Let's us see the conclusion of the whole matter.
1. Tough to define, there are the obvious ones like lusting in your heart or hating, but I came to think of it more as deviation from godliness or the difference between what you actually do and what you should do (or what god would do).
Notice how you look at sin, Ryan, as what you do. Methodists, as well as all other Bible-based denominations, don't define sin only in that limit view. It's more than just failing to live up to the standard God has set. It's crime and violence against the character of God himself. Think of it this way: you have a child who, after raising him/her up and giving him everything he/she could ever need, and he/she turns her back on you, rejects you, curses you, and spits in your face. Not only that but they do violence to others and try to destroy everything you have built for them. Think of how much that would hurt as a loving Father and you start to come closer to how our sin is an affront to God. It's not just about what you did or do - it's about what you fail to do. I can't ding you too hard for missing a lot of the thrust here because if you truly understood what Jesus did for you on that cross you would not have left Him.
2. You answered this one for me, but of course as a Christian, I believe I, and everyone else was a sinner and was born that way, that's how they scare you into needing the cure.
I was actually asking about if you consider yourself a sinner now? Do you live up to the standards of what you know to be right and shunning doing wrong now?
3. As a Christian, nothing, except faith in Christ. If you fell short, you were to "go forth and sin no more" or at least try. Maybe I misunderstood what you were asking.
Definitely misunderstood. Not surprising though because I don't think you ever understood it. Ryan, the question was more directed to your condition today. By Biblical definitions, you are still a sinner. How do you fix that. You and I will always fall short. How do you make up for that? Why shouldn't God just take you out? When you were Christian, did you understand that Jesus alone makes the difference? Without him you will receive the full wrath of God - what we truly deserve. We had an interaction once where you vehemently denied that people are inherently evil and without any hope of doing good on our own apart from God. You kept saying that people are capable of doing good things and never seemed to understand that I do not deny that. Instead I am saying that the Bible shows us that we are not good - instead we are shaped in iniquity and every inclination to evil - without God. I'd bet that when you were a Christian you would have denied those truths in the Bible just like you do today.
4. This was more of a statement than a question. I felt a lot of guilt prior to being born again, and then not after.
I'm kind of wondering where did I tell you I was only going to be asking you questions.After being born-again a believer should be going through the lifelong process of sanctification. This means that God starts cleaning you up from your sins and you grow to become more like Jesus Christ. You sin less and less. Your thought processes and relationships with others change. You get closer to God. The thing is the more closer you get to God the more filthy you see you are. You see you have sins you didn't even know you had. That's not saying the guilt comes back or increase. No. Joy and gratitude to God for saving you increases. It continually goes on. I realize that you,Ryan, was writing quickly and not giving a lot of details but in all of our interactions you have never brought this up as something you experienced. Every believer that I know, including myself, will testify to this.
5. Again, not so much a question. But I will say my prayers were sometimes "answered" and sometimes not. At the time, I was amazing when they were "answered", more likely I was simply counting the hits and dismissing the misses.
I think you are making a big assumption here, Ryan. To be fair I think most people make this same mistake: thinking an "answered" prayer means that things turned out the way you prayed for them to turn out. However God can and sometimes does say "No". In my experience some of my greatest blessings have come time when God has said "No". Another difference I see between mine and other believers I know experiences contrasted with yours is that you never talk about other kinds of prayers other than asking God to do something on your behalf. There are other types of prayers. Didn't you ever pray for guidance? Didn't you ever pray for wisdom? Didn't you ever pray to be a blessing to other people? Have you ever asked God to give you patience? Have you ever interceded with God on the behalf of anyone but yourself? Some of the best ways I've seen God move in such a way that there were no other explanation but that God did it were in those circumstances when I was concerned with pleasing him more than myself. My experience with God is that God never misses.
6. Please describe in detail some of the examples of reciprocation in your "back-and-forth" relationship with god and explain how those instances could not possibly have a natural explanation. I suspect, like I said before, you are merely counting the hits and dismissing the misses.
Everyone knows that if you are honest most of the time you have no idea what you are doing. We are all really "winging" it. I have had the experience of God's guidance. Giving me knowledge I did not know and how to apply it when I needed it. He's done it by having someone tell me about something I asked God about. And sometimes it's been straight revelation. Also there have been many times when God did not and has not told me things I wanted to know when I wanted to know them. He does both. It's not something we are in control over. I have walked up to people and been able to tell them exactly what they needed hear or read because God gave me what they needed. God has spared my life on numerous occasions - from dangers I knew about and some I did not - even before I was saved.I know what it's like to about to say or do something in anger, and the Holy Spirit stops me. Sometimes it's been a nudge and there have been times God has shut my mouth. I thank Him for both.
7. Again, not really a question, but on one hand you say it's not enough to "feel", on the other, head knowledge isn't enough. Is this one of the mysteries of your cult?
I'm not sure what your confusion is here, Ryan. Where did I say you should only go on your feelings to relate to God? When did I say that you should only use head knowledge to relate to God? I didn't. I'm thinking that you only had a head knowledge of scripture. and you didn't have a change in heart - mind and attitude. The more I learn about God the more I learn how much I need to change in my thinking and actions. You really didn't describe your born-again experience. What sins did you stop doing after your received Jesus as your Lord and Savior? How did your life change? Did you have an insatiable hunger to read the Bible and learn more about God? These are what happened to me and continue to grow and manifest. For example, recently God revealed a huge problem I had and I didn't even know it. I had a huge problem with the fact that slavery had been an institution in the United States - so much so that I thought that any white person who owned slaves had gone straight to hell. I was convicted by this when God made me realize that this thought was not Biblical. It's not part of the Gospel. It's not a litmus test for who makes it heaven or not. I was floored! I didn't even know I was that prejudiced. Another example is I thought that people who left Christianity or just rejected Jesus were stupid. I thought that there was something about me more special than they are. God again showed me how stupid that is - from scripture. When you were a Christian, how did God change your mind? Can you relate to the prophet Isaiah? He said:
“Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.” - Isaiah 6:5
If you don't have a clue about how Isaiah felt, you weren't saved. The thing about the born-again experience it's about a change in you. You are not supposed to be the same person you were before your conversion. It's a one-way conversion. Again: once one is born you can't become unborn. This is why Jesus used the term "born again" (or "born from above") to describe it in John 3.
Paul was also clear in Romans 12:1,2
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
It's an ongoing transformation not a one-time deal.. The word the Bible uses to say "transformed" is the same word we get "metamorphosis" from. Ryan, you claim to know biology better than I do. Therefore you know that there is not a single change described in biology as a metamorphosis that is reversible. For example butterflies do not turn back into caterpillars. This is why the changes born-again person goes through is described that.
Ryan, I recognize that the Bible holds not weight for you and I have to wonder how much weight did it hold for you when you were a "Christian". I think if you think back you will remember quite a few things in it you didn't accept from the Bible back then either. There are two more scriptures that I would point to underscore the point that saved people can't become unsaved.
So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.- 1 Corinthians 5:16-21
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1 John 2:18-20
I know that there are some Christians who do believe that you can loose your salvation. Ryan, you may have been one of these. However, the scripture that tell us to persevere and not give up or turn away are there because we should never look at this as if you can do whatever you want and still be saved. If you are still doing and thinking all of the same stuff you were before you were born-again it's proof that you were not born-again. There should be some thing different if you are truly a new creation.
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