For the past few days I have been...um...dialoguing with a person on twitter about the nature of God, evidence for his existence, and human free will. He felt compelled to write a full blog post in response to the discussion. I feel honored. He obviously put a lot of thought into it. I've decided to respond in kind. In addition this essay is a lot more respectful and articulate that some his tweets. My words will be in red and his will be in black.
Compelled to choose freely
// July 8th, 2009 // Blog
I am in the midst of a discussion regarding the truth (or otherwise) of Christianity with @mmcelhaney on Twitter (his blog can be found here). Of course, it is a difficult task to distil complex notions about existence, philosophy, science, and theology into 140 characters of less. As a consequence may points span multiple tweets, spawning multiple threads in reply, which inevitably bring up new topics and a raft of new points to discuss and refute.
One of these points which we have been hitting back and forth is the conflict between free will and omniscience. Marcus’s latest explanation is this (starting at this tweet):You are right billions of people are going to hell. But billions of people are also going to heaven and God knows who is going where.
Instead of asking why you got to go to hell, you are missing the fundamental question: Why do people go to hell?
People don’t go because God doe not go against their free will or that they chose the wrong religion. Everyone has failed to meet the standard for holiness that God has set. By definition, every human being capable of choosing to to disobey God deserves hell. Even those of us who are saved deserve hell. The only difference is that God has chosen to save some of humanity through faith in Christ – Ephesians 2.
Yes, God knows who will go to hell, and He could force every single person to repent. But he does not. Why? For reasons known only to Him. No one comes to Christ against their own will. Everyone who rejects him does so willingly.
If you interviews anyone in hell and tell them that all they have to do is serve God and they can get out of hell, they will refuse and walk right back into hell. Think I’m wrong? Well, you are making the same stupid decision today if you reject Jesus.
What a jumbled mess of theology and poor logic this is, but let’s see if we can unravel some of Marcus’s ahhh… misunderstandings.I think for the purposes of our discussion we will continue to leave the Trinity out of the discussion and save it for some other time. This guy is the one who misunderstands. The son willingly gave himself for us as the propitiation for our sins and no one deserves it.
The “fact” billions might be destined for Heaven has zero bearing on the “fact” that billions are also destined for Hell. There is a dichotomy in Marcus’s head. On one hand he has an all loving God who is willingly to kill his own son in order to save us from this fiery fate (not himself mind you, unless you want to delve into the murky depths of the trinity). Marcus wishes to ignore the terrible fate of those who “choose” to spend eternity in Hell to keep his precious image of Heaven intact. Marcus – will you have a good view from Heaven where you can witness the damned being tortured?
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. - Hebrew 12:2
The other point is that Jesus did not die and stay dead He is alive. He rose.
But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. - Acts 2:24
I'm not ignoring the fact fate that many people are going to spend eternity in Hell. It bothers me. I don't want anyone to go to Hell. That is why I want to tell everyone I can that God has provided us a way to escape the fate that will befall us without God's intervention. God does not take joy in people going to hell.
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." - Luke 5:32In heaven there is no reason to think that those in heaven will be able to see or know anything about the torture in Hell. Where is that in the Bible, just an appeal to emotion...no substance to the argument.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9
The second part of that sentence is very telling: “and God knows who is going where”. This is classic cognitive dissonance in action, and has been my point throughout the discussion.
Marcus, imagine a time before creation. God could have created any one of an infinite number of possible universes. Being omniscient he would have known out each would play out and how their eventual destruction would come about. He would have known the intricate details of every molecule, dust speck, and living organism within each possible universe before he lifted his transcendental finger. He would have foreseen the creation of multiple religions and the false Gods that millions would bow down to. He knew which universes would contain billions of people who would end up “choosing” to reject his divinely invisible love and point themselves towards the burning gates of Hell. Yet to spite all of this he went ahead and created this universe – one in which billions do fall for the lies of “false religions”, following “false Gods” or no god at all, and wind up having the flesh burnt from their writhing bodies for all eternity. On this basis alone I would reject such a monstrosity of a being is such a thing existed (luckily there is no evidence for such a beast).
Andrew, you are missing one very important point. How would you know that any of us would exist if God had not allowed this kind of universe, neither you nor your children would exist as you exist now. God has a purpose in choosing this universe rather than another. I don't know what it is. However, I do know that God has only good intentions for His creation and not one of us knows enough of what's going on to challenge the decisions He has made. How do you know that things would not have been worse had God not allowed another universe? We don't. That's what being a Christian is about. Trusting God even if we don't know what the whole masterpiece looks like.
Another attempt to use emotion rather than logic. This analogy does not fit where humanity is spiritually before coming to Christ. People who end up in hell are not Children of God (Joun1;1 John 3). The other things asking why would God not lower the price of sin to something less severe is a silly idea. Lowering the bar for righteousness is not Justice. It's about the character of God that sets the bar. Righteous is who He is. To lower the standard would be going against himself. Even our own secular wisdom says: "To your own self be true". Why shouldn't God do the same? As for disease and pain and suffering God has a purpose and I don't know what it all is yet, but God promises in His Word that.
According to the theology of Christianity, God took human form as his own son so that he could pay the price of sin. Naturally, no one has been able to sufficiently answer why death is the price of sin, or why God, in his all loving mercy, could not adjust the price of sin to something less severe. You see, an all loving being would do anything and everything within his power to prevent harm from coming to those he loves, yet this is exactly what we do not see in the world. God routinely ignores prayer, sits idly by as thousands starve to death everyday, and allows his perfectly designed bacteria to infest, overcome, maim, and kill his beloved children. This is not a God I would be interested in worshipping.
Anyway, back to Marcus’s tweets:When God first created everything, man was perfect able to meet that standard. Again Jesus rose from the dead so although his crucifixion was the worse thing that ever happened, Jesus won. He triumphed.
“Everyone has failed to meet the standard for holiness that God has set.”
So why did God set the standard so high – surely he knew the organisms in this universe were not capable of attaining such lofty heights of morality without the mandated shedding of animal sacrifice, reaching its crescendo with the most perfect of all human sacrifices in the murder of Jesus himself? Oh, I am forgetting “free will” again, aren’t I?
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.d]"> - Colossians 2:9-15
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The only difference is that God has chosen to save some of humanity through faith in Christ.
Wait a minute, I thought we had free will to choose to between eternal bliss, or complete agony? If God has already chosen who to save through “faith in Christ” then what can I do to change the ultimate outcome? Especially when God selected this particular universe from an infinite number of alternatives. This universe, where I would reach the inevitable and logical conclusion that such a being is impossible, not to mention terrifying.
Sorry to break it to you. We do choose, but not because of anything in us or from us. Read Romans 9. However the conclusion you draw is stupid. You are not free from sin and death until you come to God. Before that you are in slavery to sin. If you want to be free you got to go to Jesus. That is what the Bible teaches. Complaining about the fact that God has selects whom he has mercy on is silly. If you want to be saved then God has called you to be saved. If you don't then He didn't and you don't want to be saved anyway.
God knows who will go to hell, and He could force every single person to repent. But he does not. Why? For reasons known only to Him.
So God chooses not to save those people in Hell because that would somehow interfere with free will, to spite the “fact” he is omniscient and knows every decision anyone has or will make until the end of time.
I have never said that. You are going by a characature of what some Christians say they believe, which I reject because the Bible does not support it. As an unbeliever, you have nothing to add to that debate.
No one comes to Christ against their own will. Everyone who rejects him does so willingly.
Read those two sentences above again. Now again. Let it sink in. So is it only those people who know about Christ and willingly rejecting him who are destined for Hell? What about those billions who have never even heard the name of Jesus, or the millions of babies who die before being giving the chance to accept Jesus into their hearts, or have in thrust upon them in a baptism? How is this fair to those of us who have honestly evaluated the evidence for Christ (or any other prophet) and found it lacking? My head just exploded, but I suppose I should become familiar with that sensation now given where I am headed according to Marcus.
If you interviews anyone in hell and tell them that all they have to do is serve God and they can get out of hell, they will refuse and walk right back into hell. Think I’m wrong?
Hell yes! Who wants to have white hot pokers shoved into their eyes and their intestines gnawed by rats? This really shits me – how can you have a just and perfect loving god who allows such things?
Several points to make. Andrew, why do you think that is what Hell will be like. Nothing in the Bible talks about the torture you describe. Stick to the text please.
Let me give you a quick parallel: I have two beautiful daughters who want to play on the busy road outside. Now I love my kids, but I cannot interfere with their free will. I know playing on the road is dangerous and there is a good chance they will be badly injured or killed if they go out there, but what can I do? Is it their fault when they are struck by a truck and spread all over the bitumen?
You cannot interfere with your children's free will, but God can and does. He is in complete control of everything. Sometime he restrains what we do and sometimes He doesn't. For reasons and purpose we don't fully understand He works out the reality we experience. Your analogy fails because it attempts to explain something so infinite in finite terms that cannot possibly measure up.
Well, you are making the same stupid decision today if you reject Jesus.God is not hiding if you want to know what the truth is you can find it. Read Isaiah 45.
There are many religions in the world today (not to mention now dead religions) which threaten eternal damnation for those who are foolish enough to reject their doctrines. The two most prevalent modern examples are Christianity and Islam, but it’s by no means limited to these two. If I am to avoid timeless suffering I must be sure of the faith I select, since both renditions of God are quite intolerant of disbelief.
Without substantiating your claim that Jesus is the only way to attain access to Heaven, then I can simple assert that you are making the same stupid decision if you reject the teachings of the final prophet of Allah. Your empty threats mean nothing without proving your case first. The scare tactics you have demonstrated here may have worked in the dark ages, but the church and your antiquated theology can no longer stand the education and rational thinking modern society has attained – fighting religion at every stage.Jesus substantiated that claim when He walked out of that tomb with all power in His hand. We've been through this in Twitter. I've presented links to you for evidence for the resurrection and yet you haven't provided a shred of rebuttal for rejecting the fact that Jesus is what He said. All other religions deny this. Every single one of them. Hell is not a scare tactic. I serve God not because I'm afraid of goint to hell but because I love Him because He first loved me. I'm not better than anyone else. He has done nothing but show me love and kindness my whole life. Why would I not serve Him? He deserves it. Even if he had never done a thing for me other than allow my birth, I owe Him everything. You owe Him also. It's irrational to avoid the evidence just because you don't like where it points. You agreed with me that the standards God asks us to meet according to the Bible are too high for any person to attain. I agree. That is why Jesus came. He made up the difference for us. He lived the life we can't. Just like Adam damned us all through His disobedience, Jesus saves us through His obedience, life, sacrifice, and resurrection. All we have to do is accept it. IF you can't accept it, it isn't because God rejected you. It is because you have rejected Him.
You silly religion will be thrown on the scrape heap of history, like all those that came before it.
Dude, It's been 2000 years (5000 yrs or more if you count the Old Testament) and Christianity is sitll growing and people are still coming to Jesus. God loves you and desire a relationship with you. Seek Him and be truly free. As a parting point, I'm not suggesting that Babies go to hell and that a person would need to absolutely know about Jesus to be saved. I was talking about people who are alive now and have an opportunity to know who Jesus is. Babies go back to God automatically if they die. (see 2 Samuel 12:22-24 for an example of what happens when a Baby dies). I think what is more important is the realization that there were a lot of people who lived and died and yet we believe they are in heaven and did not have access to the the same knowledge of Jesus as we do now (see Hebrews 11). These men and women just followed after God with what they knew at the time. Jesus also said that all those who seek him would find him. I believe that this is true no matter what. So that anwers the problem of those who aren't born into Christianity or were born before Christ came. I'm sure that there were billions of people born before Christ will also be in heaven.
