Image via WikipediaContinuing in my discussion with Marcus, he responds to my contention that John 12:32 clearly says that Jesus will draw all to Himself: John 12:32 says "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” Jesus is not saying that all men - every single person is drawn to Jesus - all kinds of people are.This particular translations makes it clear - "all peoples". Brennon, you are definitely right that we do indeed agree that not everyone is drawn at the same intensity or even at the same time, but no one gets saved without that drawing.
The translation he used is one of my favorites, the NKJV. However, I think this translation falls short of capturing what this verse is saying. Most other translations say, "all men" and not "all peoples". In looking at the original Greek, you will see that that phrase is added in by the translators for clarity (as seen here). Thus, the verse would actually literally read "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself." Translating this to read this as a drawing of all kinds of people or something like that is showing a prior theological bent, because the Greek reading is just "all". You are correct, Marcus, that no one is saved without the drawing of Christ, but that is not what is being debated. We both agree on that.
Brennon, the fact that we agree on that no one can be saved unless they are drawn was brought up by me in the previous post because I wanted to be clear that I know you agree. I'm sorry if I made it sound like you did not know that. I recognize that you do. As for the meaning of John 12:32, I think the context of Jesus' words tells us the scope of who is going to be drawn when Jesus is lifted up. Let's examine verses 20-36
20Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the Feast. 21They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, with a request. "Sir," they said, "we would like to see Jesus." 22Philip went to tell Andrew; Andrew and Philip in turn told Jesus.
23Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.
27"Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28Father, glorify your name!"
Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again." 29The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.
30Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
34The crowd spoke up, "We have heard from the Law that the Christ will remain forever, so how can you say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this 'Son of Man'?"
35Then Jesus told them, "You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going. 36Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of light." When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.
We also agree that people frustates the desires of God to come to him. We don't want God. We don't look for Him. We never will if God does not initiate the relationship
Marcus, this isn't really the case. In Calvinism, God has chosen a select few to bestow His grace on. When He does this, this grace is irresistible, in that it is outside the capability of the will of man to resist this. Man cannot frustrate the purpose of God in drawing them irresistibly. This is what a major portion of this debate boils down to; is God's grace such that it can be resisted or not? We both agree that it is necessary. I have displayed clear passages of man resisting the Holy Spirit and frustrating the desire of God. This is because God allows this measure of freedom so He might have a genuine love relationship with His creatures.
When I said that people frustrate the desires of God to come to him, I was referring to everyone before they get the call and respond. Calvinism agrees with that. If I understand, you are saying that it is outside the capability of the will of man to come to Jesus, but you disagree that the call is irresistible. The thing is that something must happen to allow us to come to Jesus if by default we are incapable of doing it on our own. I don't think proving that people resisting and frustrating the desire of God by not repenting disproves the "I" in TULIP - Irresistible Grace because in those situations the people have not had that grace applied to them and is in their unregenerate state.
This is the point though. It's clear that Stephen recognized the work of the Holy Spirit in these people's lives. They were resisting the teaching and drawing of the Holy Spirit in the teachings of Stephen. Thus, the work of the Holy Spirit can be resisted by men.
All men are called to repentance and we who are saved were once one of them who refused to repent. What happens that causes us to stop resisting and surrender? It can't be our free will because, as you agree, we can't do it. We are unable. So how does it happen?
I admit that I don't read Greek, nor can I use the grammar well but I don't see any difference between the two definitions. I mean to put something in place or to arrange something really isn't different firom fixing or determining or appointing with regards to that which is being τάσσω.
Arminians believe that God must put in place the ability to believe in the gospel. He arranges circumstances for people to hear the gospel and respond. The work of the Holy Spirit on the heart is also arranging for a person to believe. This is all very similar to what the Calvinist believes except we contend that it is not an irresistible work. God allows a person to resist if they choose. If they cease resisting, He will complete the transformation, regenerating their heart. If we are to say that God "fixes" or "determines" a time for an individual to believe, then it is an irresistible and predetermined act and impossible to see where the responsibility of man lies.
This is exactly my point. We cannot come to God on our own until God places the ability in us - yet we are held responsible because as you agree, we are all hell bound by default. Therefore, it doesn't change man's responsibility if the the grace to repent is irresistible.
I think scripture plainly gives complete credit four our accepting the call to repentance and our rejection as own fault. I don't see how they shut the door because the door was shut for them in the first place.
I'm not sure what you're saying here completely. As for the door shutting, Acts 13:46 says, "Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, 'It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.'" They rejected it. They judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. It's clear that the offer was open and genuine and able to be accepted by these people, but they thrust the gospel from themselves. It wasn't withheld by God, it was pushed away by men.
I would not say that Calvinism is saying that God withholds the grace from some and gives it to others because those who have not been regenerated hate God and does not want the grace in the first place. No one who wants the grace of God will ever be denied. But no one wants salvation without that grace in the first place. They have no other choice but to reject the gospel. I also think that James White deserves more credit than what you have stated.
I will confess I'm not a big fan of James White, nor of Steve Gregg. I'm sure they're both brothers in the Lord, but I disagree with the tactics of the former and the latter I don't really know that much about.
I think you may look at Steve Gregg's debate with White and then tell me what tactics of White's you disagree with. I think he was fair and gracious. Brennon are you familiar with the work of George Bryson? Do you think he accurately represent your views?
You have articulated the salvation process as I would have about 10 years ago. What changed my mind was the realization that all people are hell bound as a default.
But Marcus, I agree that people are hell bound by default.
The fact that you agree is why I am so interested in talking to you. It was my understanding that Arminians did not agree with the fact that all people are hell bound by default. Does this mean that you agree with the "T" in TULIP - Total depravity of man? Not all who call themselves "Armininan" would agree. I don't remember who it was but in a debate he said that no one is so dead in sin that they can't accept the gospel of their own free will.
It's not up in the air, until a person makes a decision - from the time you are born and accountable for your sins (we'll skip the babies, young children, and mientally handicapped for now) you, me, all people deserve hell. And the understanding that no one can be saved unless they are drawn
This isn't a point of disagreement between us. We agree here.
This is why our interaction interest me so much, Brennon, because people, claiming to be Arminians, have rejected this point. These are the people with whom James White often finds himself in opposition. And I understand that we agree..
If I understand you, you are saying that God tweaks a person just enough so that they can make a free decision.
Then you haven't understood me Marcus. I have tried to make crystal clear that the grace of God is completely necessary in every aspect of salvation. It is God alone who works on our heart, drawing and calling us for salvation. It is God's work alone that saves. Our only command is to stop resisting and put our faith in Jesus for our salvation.
I'm confused I thought I stated the same thing you said about your viewpoint. How is it different?
As Arminius writes:
In reference to Divine Grace, I believe, 1. It is a gratuitous affection by which God is kindly affected towards a miserable sinner, and according to which he, in the first place, gives his Son, "that whosoever believers in him might have eternal life," and, afterwards, he justifies him in Christ Jesus and for his sake, and adopts him into the right of sons, unto salvation. 2. It is an infusion (both into the human understanding and into the will and affections,) of all those gifts of the Holy Spirit which appertain to the regeneration and renewing of man -- such as faith, hope, charity, &c.; for, without these gracious gifts, man is not sufficient to think, will, or do any thing that is good. 3. It is that perpetual assistance and continued aid of the Holy Spirit, according to which He acts upon and excites to good the man who has been already renewed, by infusing into him salutary cogitations, and by inspiring him with good desires, that he may thus actually will whatever is good; and according to which God may then will and work together with man, that man may perform whatever he wills.
In this manner, I ascribe to grace the commencement, the continuance and the consummation of all good, and to such an extent do I carry its influence, that a man, though already regenerate, can neither conceive, will, nor do any good at all, nor resist any evil temptation, without this preventing and exciting, this following and co-operating grace.1(emphasis mine)
Thanks for quoting Arminius directly. I largely agree with the statement except I'm wondering about this part:
It is that perpetual assistance and continued aid of the Holy Spirit, according to which He acts upon and excites to good the man who has been already renewed,
He also said:
"Concerning grace and free will, this is what I teach according to the Scriptures and orthodox consent: Free will is unable to begin or to perfect any true and spiritual good, without grace. . .I confess that the mind of a natural and carnal man is obscure and dark, that his affections are corrupt and inordinate, that his will is stubborn and disobedient, and that the man himself is dead in sins. And I add to this -- that teacher obtains my highest approbation who ascribes as much as possible to divine grace, provided he so pleads the cause of grace, as not to inflict an injury on the justice of God, and not to take away the free will to that which is evil.2
I agree with that completely. Man is never able in his natural state to do any true spiritual good. This is why God is the one who seeks us. It's not just a "nudge," Marcus. He is imploring us to come to Him.
By "nudge", I meant that God has to put the ability in us so that we can positively respond. I see by the quote that Arminius believed that our free will to choose God is important but without the ability given to us, we can't come. Imploring does not make any difference if we are unable to come...and you agree that by default, we can't come. I use the word, "nudge" to describe your view because I thought that you were saying God gives you the ability to believe but the person must choose to believe or not to believe. What messes me up is the fact that all reject the work of the Holy Spirit by default. You have stated that God gives us the ability to choose to serve him, but I think you are also saying that he gives people who choose not believe the same ability to choose. Right?
Because some resist this calling. He calls all but not all respond.
Brennon, can you give me a list of scriptures that believe shows that God is calling everyone? I mean we agree that all don't respond, but do all have the ability to respond? By default...no.
Okay. The problem is we know that by default no one has faith.
It's not a problem though, Marcus. I agree with you on this.
What is it that make a person say "Yes" after by definition they said "No,"?
In this question you're assuming that something must make us choose something. That is begging the question.
You agreed with me that something does make us choose because apart from God's grace we can't choose. No one gets to not choose.
Scripture says that they say "No" because it is the only choice they can make. (Romans 8:5-8; Hebrews 11:6)
That passage from Romans are dealing with man in his natural state. If God shows His grace to someone, they can exercise faith.
So are you saying that God does not show His grace to everyone?
Calvinism does not explain why the elect are chosen other than that God wanted to do
I didn't say it does. But in being chosen by God from eternity past, you are automatically better than the non-chosen pagan.
Sorry, I disagree. The Bible clearly says that it's not because we are better. 1 Corinthians 1: 25-27
25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
No. Scripture says that it is God causing us to accept God
Actually scripture only affirms that God enables us to come to Him.
Where?
Matthew 11:27 does not say that Jesus chooses to reveal the Father to everyone either
Jesus knows that not all can respond unless they are drawn by the Father. We also know that only those can come. Are you saying that God gives the ability to everyone? Where?
How can you say that God does not cause us to enter into union with Christ in that we can't go unless He enables us to do so?
Enabling someone to do something doesn't mean they will necessarily do it.
I agree but we are back to the question: Does God enable everyone?
I admire William Lane Craig (WLC) but I have to disagree with him on this, partly. He rejects that we are hostile to God prior to conversion.
He absolutely does not, Marcus. On page 46 of the third edition of Reasonable Faith, Craig writes, "Here the Holy Spirit's ministry is threefold: he convicts the unbeliever of his own sin, of God's righteousness, and of his condemnation before God...This is the way it has to be. For if it weren't for the work of the Holy Spirit, no one would ever become a Christian" (emphasis his).3 He goes on to affirm that natural man does not seek God in the next sentence, quoting from Romans. You can read the page online here.
I stand corrected. Thanks, Brennon. I misunderstood Dr. Craig.
His theology does not address this problem. Your's attempts to but tries to hold on to libertarian free will.
I have the suspicion, Marcus, that you're taking someone's second hand word for this, as I have just shown that Craig does deal with this. His and my position are virtually identical on this point.
What happened was I misunderstood Craig's refutation of Calvinism. He places a lot of emphasis on human free will in my opinion.
The truth is if it's going to keep my butt out of hell, I'll be God's puppet but I think it's way more complicated then that
The problem that arises from this kind of determinism is God as the author of sin.
I disagree. God is not the author of sin. But you have to admit that He allowed sin to become actualized and He didn't have to. Our sins are own faults and we are held accountable outside of Christ. Brennon, do you believe that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross covers those who reject Christ?
Um, but that is what Paul wrote.
No, Paul did not write God chose us to be in Christ. He wrote that He chose us in Christ.
I don't really understand the distinction you are making because no one is in Christ unless they are chosen. God has to give you the ability. I'd like to get some more scripture from you to understand if you believe that God gives the same ability, in equal measure, to everyone?
Sorry this response took so long. I have been busy lately. God bless you, brother.
Thanks for response! I really appreciate it! I'm glad God saved you and that you are going to heaven and deepening your relationship with the One who made us all. I look forward to more interaction on this!
Brennon's Thoughts: More with Marcus
![Reblog this post [with Zemanta]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/blogger_img_proxy/AEn0k_vgRtZrKdt9p9Rd5cn3x8HoH8MajYv5r1QaPiQwHq-XDFpcw3Y4uTeYkV8WUa7TVnFO3u5gaAHo0W06x6v0zenwDzC7sB7XMdA78LufQCkblvRzSACrDgZRNXERslexAnFRjY8flahZNJH_kL03RJU=s0-d)
![Reblog this post [with Zemanta]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/blogger_img_proxy/AEn0k_vxOLBN7AEhjgZt0jqoFozgFGJZF95cNdz2yQiARV-MDwJAXSfxRYSxnF7Yeg--MYcvmh1SSMKCaB-STkHi-RuJWJpmqEzBja77m0WbXADAg6JOnnuvEIoFffXF0jbUA5jbV3ougjuegSo8UGoHNM8k=s0-d)
![Reblog this post [with Zemanta]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/blogger_img_proxy/AEn0k_vUVHGodSoIa-ngvRZTOch7dEbgngzcRFggHjK_qq_J-nWsCFqFEwdWV8sI0mHW1K_7II5dCGDNGzO8tzheMbb0ipTFZj3mvX1aY9QXQ7XvQkhwCym5jE85jLXyxTS60HsrwpHir6S07rXThBBTdKs=s0-d)
![Reblog this post [with Zemanta]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/blogger_img_proxy/AEn0k_tx-5IjhdQc06LDrE8Vtx840MxkCrZjon63_uc2uActFeN-Nu48N2WGB381YW9cajzV5v5s2C33AyLS-WHnsQXgPnpXRD6oAEAbA-_0qUFOjsU2pbtWbnGJC08QxCJjP20kLCk-sIwYTHruTkbWdh3q=s0-d)
![Reblog this post [with Zemanta]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/blogger_img_proxy/AEn0k_u72VO3aH8mRQBeRV5FBjsXXftjdb0udtxM1W7ojP4cowTRm2-RARbTGz9EFJamlYRTwj2uqj-RepDRvVJBLUnb15i8j_qUMJezicrq-22G9DH62QpKjXtADfKBV2FtgrKahMmpYPJtpV1t-tZrFAhQ=s0-d)