Askegg has responded to my response. Read that at blog. I thought that I would take the time to respond back. Again, my current words are in red.
After my last blog post to Marcus, he has responded:
For the past few days I have been…um…dialoguing with a person on twitter about the nature of God, evidence for his existence, and human free will. He felt compelled to write a full blog post in response to the discussion. I feel honored. He obviously put a lot of thought into it. I’ve decided to respond in kind. In addition this essay is a lot more respectful and articulate that some his tweets. My words will be in red and his will be in black.
I am not sure I put that much effort into it – it was essentially a stream of consciousness, which I did not even re-read once complete. Nevertheless, I appreciate the full blog post in response and will respond to your comments in turn.
I think for the purposes of our discussion we will continue to leave the Trinity out of the discussion and save it for some other time. This guy is the one who misunderstands. The son willingly gave himself for us as the propitiation for our sins and no one deserves it.
Many bright minds have delved the depths contained in the mystery of the trinity, and none have really come up with a definition or rational explanation. The essence of most modern Christian theology is that God, Jesus, and something called the “Holy Ghost” form three parts of the same god – something like ice, water, and steam are different representations of water.
On the surface, this explanation of the trinity seems to solve the riddle, that is until you remember that one part of god cursed us for all time for the horrendous crime of disobeying him, while the other died to pay the price of this transgression (although he came back to life, so it’s unclear what kind of sacrifice it really was).
This is basic one-o-one: there are not three gods. I'm not going to sit here and assert that I understand all of it, but that much you should know had you ever been a Christian. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not 3 Gods. There is only one God. One Being. One Essence. Father, Son, And Holy Spirit are three personalities in the one being. Here is an example. Would you answer the question "What Are You?" with the same answer as "Who ARE YOU?" God is one What - one BEING. God is three WHOs - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Read The Forgotten Trinity by James White. After re-reading this paragraph, I've decided to change it. Askegg did not say that the Trinity means 3 gods. However it's more than like, ice - water - and vapor. The truth is humans lack the neccessary tools to completely describe what God is. The Bible answers the question "who?" "What?" is still very much beyond us.
Let’s leave all that rubbish behind us because there is no solution to the conundrums it creates.
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. – Hebrew 12:2
The other point is that Jesus did not die and stay dead He is alive. He rose.
So again I ask, what kind of sacrifice did Jesus make. He certainly did not lay down his life for us since, as you point out, “he is alive”. When you add in the dimension of omniscience, Jesus also knew he was going to die, and be risen again – so even entering into the whole sordid affair was just playing things out.
Yes, Jesus knew He was going to die. And He knew it was going to hurt. He also knew He did not deserve it. He know You and I deserve it. A sacrifice means giving up something that you don't have to give up. He chose to give up His life and pay for our sins. He paid the penalty of sin for us. That does not mean that He had to stay dead.
But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. – Acts 2:24
I’m not ignoring the fact that many people are going to spend eternity in Hell. It bothers me. I don’t want anyone to go to Hell. That is why I want to tell everyone I can that God has provided us a way to escape the fate that will befall us without God’s intervention. God does not take joy in people going to hell.
God may not take joy in sending people to Hell, but he does it anyway. As I pointed out, there may have been an infinite ways to create a universe where people had free will and did NOT choose to rebel against God. Answer this simple question: “Is there free will in Heaven?”
If the answer is “yes”, then free will is not required for obedience or absolute happiness. If the answer is “no” then I submit that being turned into robotic automatons is not many people’s idea of Heaven.
Who says you are free now? We are in bondage to sin. You feel it. You know that. You look at the standard in the Bible for what Holiness looks like and you know you can never meet that. Jesus came to free us from our inability to live up to that. He didn't come to free us from that standard. Is there free will in Heaven? I don't know. What i do now it's gonna be better than what we got now.
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” – Luke 5:32
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. – 2 Peter 3:9
In heaven there is no reason to think that those in heaven will be able to see or know anything about the torture in Hell. Where is that in the Bible, just an appeal to emotion…no substance to the argument.
Hello Pot, this is Kettle.
You have spent a great deal of time detailing what will happen to me if I choose to reject Jesus and God – I will be pointed straight to hell. This is a clear appeal to emotion. Oh, I am scared of Hell so I better do as you say.
Unfortunately, Christians are not the only ones to use this bizarre tactic of al all loving God. Islam is the prime modern example who employ exactly the same low brow method of conversion. They also use appeals to incredulity, arguments from design, and just as many straw men. Ironically, these are all arguments for deist Gods, and not for one in-particular.
It’s nice to think that you will not have a few of Hell from your pearly seats in the Heavens. While it is true that the Bible does not answer these questions in any way (it answers precious few in reality), it does not rule out the possibility. Will you remember that billions will be living for eternity without God’s grace? Will God change your character so you won’t remember? If so, in what way will your soul still be you? If you can witness the suffering, doesn’t this detract from the joy you might feel?
Once again, the Bible is hopelessly inadequate to answer such questions, and you are just guessing if you try.
The Bible promises that on Judgement day we will see what complete justice and mercy looks like. No one will have any excuse. Everyone will know that God is right in everything He has done. The Bible also promises no tears and no suffering for those who are spending eternitiy with Him that means that we won't be witnessing the suffering of those who are in Hell. This isn't conjecture this is what the Bible teaches. If you want take issue with, you have to take it up with God. I didn't write it. Another thing is true repentence comes from responding to the love of God not from the fear of hell and eternal punishiment.
Andrew, you are missing one very important point. How would you know that any of us would exist if God had not allowed this kind of universe, neither you nor your children would exist as you exist now.
This is irrelevant. A God could well have chosen not to create anything, thereby eliminating the need for anyone to suffer at all.
If he had created nothing then there would be no us to wonder about these things so it is relevent. Saying it's not dodges the point I made...insufficiently
God has a purpose in choosing this universe rather than another. I don’t know what it is.
So the question remains – what kind of divine plan requires the eternal suffering of a good portion of his creation? I am sure you believe there is some ultimate plan which mandates God ignoring many of his children, but I fail to see how an all loving deity could inflict such pain when there may have been numerous alternatives open to him.
I don't know...and no one can answer that, The Bible teaches that God ignores no one. If God ignore someone they'd cease to exist. Good thing He doesn't blink. He chose to create this way. to complain and argue about it is like a clay pot arguing with the sculpturer that made it.
However, I do know that God has only good intentions for His creation and not one of us knows enough of what’s going on to challenge the decisions He has made. How do you know that things would not have been worse had God not allowed another universe? We don’t.
I agree – we don’t know things would not have been worse, or better for that matter. On the spectrum of possible universes I am sure there are a great number of universes worse than this one, and a great number much better. I do not need to provide evidence that this is actually the case, but the mere suggestion is enough to raise the possibility. It seems logical that an omnipotent being would be able to choose from an infinite number of possible realities – perhaps he has actually created them all through the power of his thought alone? Who knows?
Judging from what the Bible actually says there was no better universe. That doesn't mean there could not have been a universe that you or I would have liked better but this is the oine we have.
That’s what being a Christian is about. Trusting God even if we don’t know what the whole masterpiece looks like.
Well that’s great, but you have no idea if you are actually trusting an entity who exists outside of space and time, or a mere figment of your imagination.
You still havern't proved that God does not exist.
Another attempt to use emotion rather than logic. This analogy does not fit where humanity is spiritually before coming to Christ. People who end up in hell are not Children of God (Joun1;1 John 3).
Fancy footwork and playing with words does not alter the fact that, according to your antiquated theology, we are ALL children of God. Some he has preordained to spend the rest of their days without his love. Who does that?
God can do whatever He wants to do. He will have mercy on whom He willl have mercy. Read Romans 9.
The other things asking why would God not lower the price of sin to something less severe is a silly idea. Lowering the bar for righteousness is not Justice. It’s about the character of God that sets the bar. Righteous is who He is. To lower the standard would be going against himself. Even our own secular wisdom says: “To your own self be true”. Why shouldn’t God do the same? As for disease and pain and suffering God has a purpose and I don’t know what it all is yet, but God promises in His Word that.
Who says? Who are you to decide what is justice? Apparently God decides what is just and what is not, and I am sure he could decide to grace us all with his love should he choose. You may not think this is fair because you have tried to live a good Christian life (whatever that means) and tried to do all the right things. How could it be fair that someone who has lead a life of hedonistic pleasure be granted a free pass into Heaven – they have not controlled themselves. You have denied yourself pleasure in this life to attain the promise of pleasure in some afterlife for which there is no evidence.
No where does God say that anyone, who has the opportunity to accept/reject Christ, get a free pass to heaven. The truth is i have been given too much information...too much light....to get a free pass. He isn't going to give me a free pass. I'm going to have to live the way He says because I belong to Him. Jesus paid a high price and being aware of that and accepting that brings consequences just as rejecting if bring awful consequences. I'm getting this from the Bible which you can't prove to be false.
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
Actually, this line of thinking is only prevalent because the Emperor of Rome backed the Pauline position that Jesus was both human and divine, then proceeded to suppress the two main competing views.
Um no, This was written well before the Nicea Council. Show me how how I have misconstrued what the Bible says.
The Marcionites believed that Jesus was purely divine and not human at all – his humanity was an illusion, a phantasm. They believed Jehovah created this world as detailed in the Old Testament, and the One True God was so disgusted with his behaviour that he sent part of his soul (Jesus) to pay for the souls of those Jehovah tortured in Hell, thus saving them.
The Adoptionists believed that Jesus was fully human, but adopted by the Biblical God at his baptism (hence the name). Jesus’s soul escaped his human body at the crucifixion. Mohammed seized upon this idea and claimed himself to be adopted by God to preach his word, thus founding the religion of Islam.
Gnosticism sure sucks
Both were almost completely wiped out when the Romans used their military might to squash opposing views. These are a matter of historical record.
Also interesting that neither of them are supported in the Bible either. Could God had somehow intervened to maskes sure those ideas were squashed? Yes He did.
and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Ahhh…. what?
No, I never said that Free Will comes into this at all. I’m not suggesting that our will trumps God’s at all. I reject that humans have free will in that God must do anything according to our will.
I was not saying that either. I do not hold that our “free will” could trump God’s, or that an omniscient creator must somehow bend to our will. What I proposed it that God would have known our all of our decisions at the beginning of time. He can foresee the future stretching out before him like a well known movie. He knows all the characters moves, their motivations. He knows each frame of the movie in intricate detail. The characters in the movie (us) believe we have free will, but it’s an illusion. God knows exactly how it is going to end, and how the whole series will play out.
Okay, that is similar to how I look at it...almost. The future is not something that God just knows about. It's something that he controls and guides.
We do have will. We do have desires but they are subject to God’s ultimate will. And don’t forget we all go to Hell by default until we turn to God. Now how does that happen? How does God do that? Why doesn’t He do that for everyone? No man can say…least of all me. All I know is if you haven’t turned to God in total submisson and obedience you do not belong to Him.
Sigh. And God created me not to belong to him. How does that fit with the notion of “all loving”?
No where in the Bible does it say that God created anyone to not believe in Him. The Bible says we all know, some of us deny it. Look at Romans 1 and see if you do not see western society being described. Sorry to break it to you. We do choose, but not because of anything in us or from us. Read Romans 9. However the conclusion you draw is stupid. You are not free from sin and death until you come to God. Before that you are in slavery to sin. If you want to be free you got to go to Jesus. That is what the Bible teaches.
I am well aware of what the Bible teaches. It says we are born sick and commanded to be well. We were created with the capacity for sin and tempted by a talking snake, then every descendant was cursed by your all loving god to live miserable lives until God came back to Earth to kill himself to pay for the sin he created in the first place. It’s totally crazy, but you believe whatever floats your boat.
Would you rather pay for your sins? And God is not responsible for Adam disobeying. We curse ourselves leading to death. When God cursed Adam it had nothing to do with hell. Instead God promised Adam that God was going to redeem humanity. This is what Jesus did and does.
Complaining about the fact that God has selects whom he has mercy on is silly. If you want to be saved then God has called you to be saved. If you don’t then He didn’t and you don’t want to be saved anyway.
That’s one of my main points – you can worship a being who would have known which individuals would “chose” to reject him (after all, he created us this way), then turn around and say it was somehow a choice of free will.
I never said that God says that it's a free will choice. You keep putting free will in where it does not belong.
For the last time – free will is an illusion to an omniscient being. If you know the results of your actions, and the subsequent results extending forever into the future, then you are completely paralysed. There is no “choice” God could make in which he did not know the outcome – indeed you would have to ask the question what drives a being to do anything, especially when you consider his apparent unlimited power.
You are arguing a point that I never made.
Andrew, why do you think that is what Hell will be like. Nothing in the Bible talks about the torture you describe. Stick to the text please.
Better read your Bible again, mate.
Where does it say that "white hot pokers shoved into their eyes and their intestines gnawed by rats"? What Book, chapter, and verse? Sounds like you are confusing Dante's Divine Comedy with the Bible.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth – Matthew 13:41-42
If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. – Matthew 18:8
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. – Matthew 22:13
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. … And these shall go away into everlasting punishment. – Matthew 25:41, 46
into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. – Mark 9:43-48
The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. – John 5:28
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction. – 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever. – Revelations 14:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever – Revelations 20:10
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. – Revelation 20:14-15
Care to comment on those?
Yes, Hell will suck and I'm not going because Jesus paid for my sins on the cross so I don't has to go. Now, I'd be way more worried about these verses if I were you.
You cannot interfere with your children’s free will, but God can and does. He is in complete control of everything. Sometime he restrains what we do and sometimes He doesn’t. For reasons and purpose we don’t fully understand He works out the reality we experience. Your analogy fails because it attempts to explain something so infinite in finite terms that cannot possibly measure up.
So just like God I can decide when to interfere with my daughters “free will” and when not too. When they are in clear danger and I chose not to act, what does that make me? What does it make your God when he choses not to act?
You don't actively interfere in everyone of your daughters decisions even if you know that sometimes it will cause them pain. If you did, they would never learn from failure. They would never grow. God does the same with us.
Jesus substantiated that claim when He walked out of that tomb with all power in His hand.
There is no credible evidence that this ever happened. You have the stories of less than a handful of people written decades after to supposed event. It’s no more believable than “Jack and the Beanstalk”.
There is plenty evidence that the gospel account is the best explanation for the facts that we know. We’ve been through this in Twitter. I’ve presented links to you for evidence for the resurrection and yet you haven’t provided a shred of rebuttal for rejecting the fact that Jesus is what He said. All other religions deny this. Every single one of them. Hell is not a scare tactic. I serve God not because I’m afraid of goint to hell but because I love Him because He first loved me.
So your not in the least bit scared of Hell?
No, I'm not. i'm not going to hell because i put my faith in Christ. If you are sacare of helll you need to go to God and repent. He will save you too.
I’m not better than anyone else. He has done nothing but show me love and kindness my whole life. Why would I not serve Him? He deserves it. Even if he had never done a thing for me other than allow my birth, I owe Him everything. You owe Him also. It’s irrational to avoid the evidence just because you don’t like where it points.
I agree with this – let the evidence speak for itself. So far, you certainly have not shown any evidence there was actually a resurrection – no one ever has, because there is none. Zero. Not a damn thing. You have given vague Biblical quotes without first providing evidence the Bible is even true. Geez, even if parts of the Bible are true does not make it all true. “Gone with the Wind” is not a true story just because there was a civil war.
All you have to do is prove the Bible false and my who arguement collapases. This you have failed to do.
You agreed with me that the standards God asks us to meet according to the Bible are too high for any person to attain.
Can you control your thoughts? If you have ever lusted after someone you have committed adultery in your heart, which is expressly forbidden in the 10 commandments (which are the first of a list of around 60). The standards are impossible.
That is why we need Jesus.
I agree. That is why Jesus came. He made up the difference for us. He lived the life we can’t. Just like Adam damned us all through His disobedience, Jesus saves us through His obedience, life, sacrifice, and resurrection. All we have to do is accept it. IF you can’t accept it, it isn’t because God rejected you. It is because you have rejected Him
Eve was tricked first – why do I know more about your religion than you do?
You know nothing. The Bible says Eve was tricked. Adam was not tricked. He knew what he was doing. Eve thought that she was doing the right thing. Adam damned us. It wasn't on Eve.
Dude, It’s been 2000 years (5000 yrs or more if you count the Old Testament) …
You know how they calculated that fucked up number of a 6,000 year old Earth? They added the ages of the people in the Bible together. That’s it. That’s all they did. How scientific and reliable is that? I mean really?
You are right. That is not how you get a good number. I only used that number because It seems to me that the Old Testament only covers that amount not that it is the age of the earth. The Bible does not claim that the geneologies in Genesis give the names and ages of everyone. Remember what I tweeted earlier: hebrew geneologies are not exhaustive. They only hit the high points. If this bothers you..the fault is in how people have used the Bible not in the Bible itself.
… and Christianity is sitll growing and people are still coming to Jesus.
People are still flocking to Islam, so what? Even more people are shedding their superstitious believes and living full, happy, lives.
The point os that you tried to assert that Christianity and all religions will die out, but I countereed you. Glad you agree with me.
God loves you and desire a relationship with you. Seek Him and be truly free. As a parting point, I’m not suggesting that Babies go to hell and that a person would need to absolutely know about Jesus to be saved. I was talking about people who are alive now and have an opportunity to know who Jesus is. Babies go back to God automatically if they die (see 2 Samuel 12:22-24 for an example of what happens when a Baby dies).
You have no way of knowing this is true.
If 2 Samuel 12:22-24 is true then I know it's true. Prove it isn't.
I think what is more important is the realization that there were a lot of people who lived and died and yet we believe they are in heaven and did not have access to the the same knowledge of Jesus as we do now (see Hebrews 11). These men and women just followed after God with what they knew at the time. Jesus also said that all those who seek him would find him. I believe that this is true no matter what. So that anwers the problem of those who aren’t born into Christianity or were born before Christ came. I’m sure that there were billions of people born before Christ will also be in heaven.
Jesus said “I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one gets to the Father except through me.” Seem to me that all those before he appeared on the scene are doomed since they did not have a chance to know Jesus.
No, not according to the Bible. The patriarchs and all the heroes and heroines of the Old Testament are saved the same way we are today: trusting in what God has made known to us. We just have a fuller picture than they did.
In any case, if these billions of people before Jesus appeared do automatically get into Heaven, then how is that fair to the billions who came afterwards? How come babies get a free pass before they even have a chance to form a coherent thought? Earlier you were talking about a God of justice, yet here we have examples of him metering out celestial justice in grossly unfair ways.
I still maintain your God, if he existed, would be a total monster and not worthy of any worship.
God can do what ever he wants. He can give mercy however He wants to give it. The point is that if you want to get that mercy you have an opportunity because you know about Jesus. What you do with that is what you will be accountable for to God.
