Monday, July 26, 2010

Adolf Hitler Was a Christian! Was Adolf Hitler a Christian?, part 1 and 2 | True Freethinker

One of the canards the ignorant keep trotting out was that Adolf Hitler was a Christian. I hate that. It's no more true than trying to argue that Thomas Jefferson was a Catholic or a Baptist. Mariano has posted a two-part essay rebutting the fantasy that Hitler was a Christian.

Adolf Hitler Was a Christian! Was Adolf Hitler a Christian?, part 1 | True Freethinker
Adolf Hitler Was a Christian! Was Adolf Hitler a Christian?, part 2 | True Freethinker
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54 comments:

  1. Obviously, Hitler's not a Christian by your standard, but neither was he an atheist by ANY standard.

    However, the much more important question is, what religion were the average Germans in the wehrmacht, SS and running the camps? I think there's no getting around the answer to that one without very seriously committing the no true scotsman fallacy.

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  2. How was a Hitler a Christian by any Standards? I can't find anything where Hitler said He believed He was a Christian. It's not about mine nor Mariano's standard. "Christian" is a definable term. Hitler does not meet it anymore than you do, Ryan. You still haven't answered my question: By what right do you have to condemn the average Germans who ran the camp? If you want to argue that they were acting upon Christian ideals and thought, where can prove it?

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  3. Marcus: "By what right do you have to condemn the average Germans who ran the camp?"

    Do I? I wasn't there.

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  4. Okay so you think they were right. And we should have let them continue to do all the atrocities they wanted to their hearts content. Classy.

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  5. Marcus "Okay so you think they were right."

    Did I say that? No.

    Marcus said "I can't find anything where Hitler said He believed He was a Christian."

    Well then you didn't look very hard.

    "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited."

    -Adolf Hitler, Munich April, 12th 1922

    "In the Bible we find the text, 'That which is neither hot nor cold will I spew out of my mouth.' This utterance of the great Nazarene has kept its profound validity until the present day."

    -Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich, 10 April 1923 1934

    Obviously, there are a lot more than just those two quotes, but you have to be willing to actually look for them...

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  6. Seems you and Hitler felt the same way about Moral Relativism.

    “This the national government will regard its first and foremost duty to restore the unity of spirit and purpose of our nation. It will preserve and defend the foundations upon which the power of our nation rests. It will take Christianity, as the basis of our collective morality, and the family as the nucleus of our people and state, under its firm protection....May God Almighty take our work into his grace, give true form to our will, bless our insight, and endow us with the trust of our nation.”

    -Adolf Hitler, on 1 Feb. 1933, addressing Volkischer Beobachter, 5 Aug. 1935

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  7. Ryan, you have selectiver Amnesia. Did you read all the documentation that Mariano provided? Most likely not. The quotes you gave really just point to Hitler being a shrewd politician not to what he really believed or how he lived his life. Don't drink the Kool-Aid. You still haven't answered The questions: were the Nazis doing evil or not? Did the Allies have the right to step in and stop them? Why or why not?

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  8. Yeah I read it and I thought it was stupid, you've created a system that lets you believe exactly what you need to believe and is totaly unfalsifiable. Hitler literally could NEVER have said ANYTHING that would lead you to believe he was Christian, even calling himself Christian is off the table for you.

    I'll just take him at his word.

    And, I don't believe that "evil" or "rights" are actual things, so I'm not going to be able to provide you with an answer that will satisfy you. But yes, in general, the NAZI policies were very harmful to Europe.

    However, you are aware that at least one of the Allies was just as "evil" as the NAZIs, right?

    Not to mention that the governments of Britian and the US both had their own holocausts that they were responsible for in the past. No one stepped in and stopped us. What right would they have had to do so?

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  9. I agree about the Soviet Union and the crimes of the US and the United Kingdom I know all about the holocausts of America. There is no dispute. However because what they did is evil and wrong and against God's standard of what is is right, of course I can stand against them. And Judge their actions as evil and hold them accountable based on that standard. If morality is relative, you cannot hold them accountable. Hitler would not agree that his actions as harmful in the slightest to Europe or anyone important.

    Think about what you have said. Just Calling yourself a Christian is no more valid than just calling yourself a heart surgeon. According to your logic you should let me perform open-heart surgery on you because I tell you I am a doctor. I have an opening for you and I can schedule you in.

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  10. Actually, we had two holocausts.

    Marcus; "Think about what you have said. Just Calling yourself a Christian is no more valid than just calling yourself a heart surgeon."

    I was unaware there was a board certification for Christianty. Oh, right, you're* the board, nevermind...

    *well, you and every other christian who doesn't like what another christian does.

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  11. Marcus; "I agree about the Soviet Union and the crimes of the US and the United Kingdom I know all about the holocausts of America."

    What right would Mexico or Canada had to invade us to stop the genocide against the native Americans?

    Do you honestly believe that Adolf Hitler (the man, not the myth) was any more "evil" than Andrew Jackson? How many civilians do we kill on two fronts under Bush and Obama. Should Canada invade to put a stop to it?

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  12. You miscount. I think after 400 years of slavery, oppression, racism, and discrimination count for way more than 2 holocausts...not to mention the Native Americans genocide and so much else.

    As for who is a Christian and who isn't the standard is not me. IT's the Bible. All you have to do is show that Hitler's and Nazis' worldview and actions line up with Bible and you can show that they were Christians. You can't. But I'd like to see you fail at it.

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  13. Exactamundo. Hitler is no more evil than I, you, or Andrew Jackson. That's not my argument. We all deserve to go to hell. Thanks for proving my point. And yes, Canada would be just as justified to stop America as we were to stop the Nazis. Won't happen. The secret is that they are in on it too.

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  14. Notice, I didn't try to argue that Hitler was not religious. Of course he was. Atheism is just as religious as anything else. He did not believe he was accountable to a God who had chosen the Jews above all other to be His people. Hitler rejected the Bible. He even had them burned in Germany remember?

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  15. Ha! I love it when Christians say they aren't religious. Very funny.

    can you cite your source on Hitler burning bibles? I don't doubt he burned Hebrew language scripture, like the Tanakh but I seriously doubt he actually burned German Catholic or Protestant bibles. I'll await your citation.

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  16. Oh, nice move with the "we're all evil sinners". Hint, you aren't going to reconvert me. Hilter was much worse then you or I. I suspect you are actually a very good person even if you won't admit it because your theology won't allow it.

    Speaking of the problem of evil, which is more likely, some guy's wife ate fruit she wasn't supposed to or we're "evil" because our ancestors clubed their rivals and mates, had claws and fangs and ate their enemies? Seems like a no brainer to me.

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  17. It wasn't about eating the fruit, Ryan. It was about disobeying God. That is what all sin is. Don't end up in hell next to Adolf Hitler. How do you measure that Hitler is worse than you or me? What standard are you using? I'm sure Hitler would disagree with you. Why would he be wrong if morality is subjective and relative?

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  18. Nice try Marcus. See the comments from our previous conversation for your last question

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  19. Also Marcus, I can't help but notice you skipped over my accusation that you've created an unfalsifiable system to enable yourself to believe what you want to believe and rather focused on the low hanging fruit of "Stalin was evil too". Nice work. Chicken...

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  20. You haven't answered any of my question.s and you call me "chicken". I sense much fear in you. My system is totally unfalsifiable. If the Bible is wrong then my worldview is wrong. Hitler disagreed with the Bible. Hitler was wrong. On what basis do you know Hitler was wrong? Relative morality does not answer the problem. If there is no objective standard what gives you the right to say Hitler and Stalin were wrong? Again I'm not saying your are incapable only that you have no logic to hold them accountable. I do. I have an objective moral standard and on that basis, Stalin, you, me, Hitler and everyone are accountable and evil and deserving of Hell. Recognizing that Hitler and Stalin (who was an atheist; although you can argue that Hitler was not an atheist and not a Christian) were evil and committed crimes and sins that you would not do is pointless if you end up in hell with them due to the sins you actually do.

    As for the Nazis burning Bibles I'm preparing a fuller statement on that issue.

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  21. Marcus said "I sense much fear in you."

    What are you, Yoda?

    Why do you think all problems have answers?

    Plus, I saw what you did with the first post. It's what you always do, you ignore the main point and jump on the relative morality "how can you say anythings wrong" attack.

    So I'll state again. So what if Hitler was a Hindu or a Moonie, most every German in the wehrmacht, SS and running the camps was a Christian.

    But who cares.

    The bottom line is that you and every other believer who employs the no true Scotsman fallacy is too chicken to accept the fact that any true adherent of your faith can do evil.

    It's been happening for 2000 years and longer but you're too chicken to admit it.

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  22. Ryan, can you really be that blind to think that Hitler was an adherrant to Christianity? Really? Do you really think he was born-again and believed he should follow Christ in everything he said and did? I'm not afraid to admit that a lot of people who claimed to be Christians have done horrendous things...but it wasn't because they were Christians. they we working against what the Bible Teaches. I've never said anything opposite. How do you explain Stalin? He was an atheist. Does that mean he as acting according to what an atheist does? Regardless of Hitler's propaganda he lived contrary to Christianity while Stalin did not live contrary to atheism. I'm not the one with the moral problem here..you are. Relative morality is bankrupt and does not answer these questions. It matters because Hitler was not acting consistently with Christianity. That is why I can argue that he was not a true Christian. Can you argue that Stalin was not a true Atheist?

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  23. Marcus said "I'm not afraid to admit that a lot of people who claimed to be Christians have done horrendous things...but it wasn't because they were Christians."

    Yeah, so you're afraid.

    I wouldn't argue Stalin wasn't a true atheist. Although he did attend seminary, but I would only go so far as use that to advance the "religion poisons everything" argument.

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  24. Marcus said "...he lived contrary to Christianity..."

    I think this is the crux of what you are missing. After 2000 years and 40,000 sects, there is no "Christianity" there are "Christianities". There's no standard... People take from the bible what they like and discard what they don't, yourself and Hitler included. Probably even Stalin... He went to seminary after all, I assume he studied the bible there. I do the same, I like the golden rule and John 8:7, but I don't like when Jesus shows himself to be a racist and I don't like most of the torah, as a moral guide anyway.

    Do you see? I'm sure you don't make your wife sleep in the yard when she menstrates, and yet Matthew 5:18.

    I'm sure you'll point out how I'm not dividing the word right, just like any one of 2 billion other people would say your not dividing it right.

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  25. Ryan...are you really serious? Why are you willing to believe that Hitler was a Christian because he said so and yet reject Stalin as an atheist although he said so. Can we say "Double Standard"? Yes we can. Stalin going to seminary made him no more a theist than reading the Bible make you a theist. What standard are you using to count Stalin as not being an atheist?

    I like John 8:7 too but how can you accept that verse yet reject John 8:24? My...full of double standards and cherry picking aren't we? Take a long look in the mirror. Women being outside the camp during menstruating had nothing to do with their ontological value or morality. Do you even know why they did that then and why we don't need to do it now? The same reason why we don't sacrifice goats, sheep, and bulls. You truly don't understand. Yeah I know that not all people who call themselves Christians agree with me, but I'm not the infallible standard. The Bible is and you can understand what it says. We know what text says. It takes study to understand and the context and the culture. When people disagree about the text you can falsifiably prove the interpretation. IF you disagree, give me one passage that is impossible to reconcile or understand such that it can be understood in multiple contradictory ways? Also tell me why the disagreement matters. You made a powerful, but misguided (read "wrong") assertion. Back it up!

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  26. Marcus said "and yet reject Stalin as an atheist although he said so."

    Yeah, I didn't do that. You have reading comprehension problems.

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  27. Marcus said "I like John 8:7 too but how can you accept that verse yet reject John 8:24?"

    Because I'm sure even Jim Jones or Charles Manson said the occasion thing that was wise, however that didn't make his other claims true.

    I think it's funny Marcus that I post that everyone cherry picks the bible, and besides Hitler, yourself and Stalin, I cite myself as an example, then you accuse me of cherry picking the bible.

    I really do think you have reading comprehension problems.

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  28. Marcus; final thought on the subject, your website is just to much of a drag on my computers. You (and Marino) seem to almost be obsessively driven to distance Christianity from Hitler, but you are quoted here saying Hitler, Stalin and Andrew Jackson are no worse than you, a dirty sinner in the eyes of the Lord. So on the one hand, Marcus is no better than Hitler, but Hitler was soooooo bad that he COULDN'T have been a Christian, but Marcus (who's just as bad as Hitler mind you) is a Christian (and a true one at that!).

    Major logical disconnect there if you ask me.

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  29. I apologize for saying you said that your reject Stalin as an Atheist. I misunderstood you. Now you apologize for your statements about what a "Christian" is - It's not true either.

    Also how about an apology for not explaining what right you have to condemn Hitler or Stalin or anyone else for that matter if there is no objective morality only relativity and given that you are no better than anyone else?

    I'd appreciate it.

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  30. Not sure which statement you are refering to? That there are multiple christianities? That's a verifiable fact.

    As to what right I have to condemn, maybe you should reread my posts and see if I did actually condemn either of them.

    But my morality comes from society and upbringing, and I suspect a bit of biology, as does yours, so based on those grounds, I can say Hitler and Stalin acted in a way that I find repugnant. Of course, this answer won't satisify you and you'll continue to demand that I answer the question even though this is my third or fourth time doing so...

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  31. Not sure which statement you are refering to? That there are multiple christianities? That's a verifiable fact.


    No the statement that there is no definable term or historical definition of "Christianity". Calling yourself a "Christian" doesn't really make you a "Christian".


    As to what right I have to condemn, maybe you should reread my posts and see if I did actually condemn either of them.


    Either you are saying they were right in what they did or you are saying they were wrong. Which is it? Yes. or No. No you didn't answer the question.


    But my morality comes from society and upbringing, and I suspect a bit of biology, as does yours, so based on those grounds, I can say Hitler and Stalin acted in a way that I find repugnant. Of course, this answer won't satisify you and you'll continue to demand that I answer the question even though this is my third or fourth time doing so...


    No you didn't answer the questions. Let me restate them more simpler.

    Given that we both agree: "Hitler and Stalin acted in a way that I find repugnant", on what basis do you call their actions repugnant? What standard are you using? Why is your standard better than Hitler's or Stalin's, given that they obviously didn't think what they did was evil?

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  32. Marcus said "No you didn't answer the questions... on what basis do you call their actions repugnant?"

    Wow... You even reposted my answer to this. Are you actually able to read?

    I'll repost your repost of what I already stated was my basis for calling it repugnant.

    But my morality comes from society and upbringing, and I suspect a bit of biology...

    If I'd been raised as a communist or a Nazi, I wouldn't be calling it repugnant, and neither would you.

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  33. No the statement that there is no definable term or historical definition of "Christianity". Calling yourself a "Christian" doesn't really make you a "Christian"

    I'll stand by this comment. Surely the existence of 40000 sects, all the various heresies apocrypha, the continued existence of the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, reformation, counter-reformation, etc... etc... etc... supports this statement.

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  34. Calling yourself a "Christian" doesn't really make you a "Christian"

    You presuppose there's a magical transformation that makes one a christian. I presuppose, in light of a severe scarcity of evidence, that there is no magical transformation, hence, for me, if one thinks they're christian, says they're christian, that's good enough for me to consider them christian.

    I get where you are coming from and why you disagree, but you don't have evidence on your side and I don't buy your presuppositions.

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  35. Ryan, I keep asking you the same question, hoping that something will click in you. You are saying that the Nazi's actions were repugnant to you because of how you were raised not that they were wrong because what they did is wrong. Doesn't that seem wrong to you? It is does to me because then you balk at the morality of menstruating women being in tents outside of the Israelite camp? Why isn't it okay for the people living in theocratic Israel but it's okay for the Nazis to kill people because of their world view. You are saying that you are the standard of what is and what is moral if you can say that the Nazis' actions were repugnant for no other reason than you don't like them. Who are you? Why should that matter?

    Your comment about defining Christianity is silly. I never said that all of the denominations and churches you mentioned are not Christians. They fit the historical definitions of what "Christian" is. Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons do not. A study of what they believe and why makes it plain what can be Biblically supported and what can't. Your statement is laughable.

    There is no magical transformation. but there is a transformation - through the work of the Holy Spirit. Nothing magical about spiritual growth. It can be painful and takes a long time. In the process you become more and more like Jesus. If you never experienced anything like that, you cannot call yourself a Christian according to the Bible and it's those people who walk away from Christianity and never return. It's not a presupposition that true Christianity is Bible-based.

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  36. Marcus, I've answered your question (several times), you don't like the answer, tough.

    Marcus said "It is does to me because then you balk at the morality of menstruating women being in tents outside of the Israelite camp?"

    No, that's fine, it's perfectly understandable given the level of knowledge and conditions at the time. I "balk" at you not observing it given that you are a professing christian and Matthew 5:18. Like it or not, it's most certainly a jot, or maybe a tittle.

    And I have experienced the "magical" transformation/spritual growth/being like "Jesus". I just figured out that it's not supernatural.

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  37. If you would look at the Torah, most of those ceremonial laws like regarding the menstruating women refer only to theocratic Israel. Sorry but that seriously straining a gnat and swallowing a camel if you observe that but reject Jesus.

    Your answer is an in consistent non-answer. Think about it. You repudiate actions but have no reason to justify condemning them. IT might as well be arbitrary according to you.

    You didn't experience a transformation because if you did you wouldn't be the same, nor could you go back any more than a butterfly and become a caterpillar again. It's not magical. You had an emotional experience. I put no stock in that without a transformation of priorities, opinion, and thought process. IF you had experienced the transformation Paul wrote about in Roman 12:2 you would be able to see God move in your life and in others.

    May God grant you mercy and true saving faith.

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  38. Holy crap, I gave you my answer 5 times. Learn to read!

    And Marcus, you can't know what someone else experienced, only what you've experienced.

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  39. "Crap" is your answer. All I've done is told you why your answer is bankrupt and lacks any power or offer any justice. Sucks to have no real meaningful hope doesn't it?

    And you said it yourself you were not transformed by the renewing of your mind. Your life did not change. According to the Bible, that means you experienced nothing real ans should stop telling people you were ever born-again. One cannot become unborn - which is what you are claiming.

    You can't even see the illogic of your own statements. Relative Morality has no basis or point in reality because it stand on nothing...backed by nothing...and make it about your opinion and not about justice or fairness or rightness. It's a cop-out so that you can try to talk about what is right and what is wrong without appealing to the source. Sad.

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  40. Marcus "Your life did not change."

    Of course it did. Nor did I "change back", but rather transformed again, moved forward. It's a journey, and it's not supernatural.

    Again, you can only comment on your own experience with anything approaching absolute authority.

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  42. Ryan, the only way you can affirm what you are saying is that you are presupposing that the Bible is not true and that there is no fundamental defining definition of what it means to be a "Christian". I reject your presuppositions. The Bible conflicts with what you are claiming is fact.

    If you do not have the right to say that what the Nazis did was wrong then you have reason to think it repugnant. Your opinion means nothing any more than it would if we disagreed over what flavor of ice cream were the best.

    I'm not judging you. The Bible says you are wrong. Also you say you are on a journey. Journey to what? do you even know? How will you know when you get there? What is the point?

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  43. Marcus said "Your opinion means nothing..."

    Exactly!

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  44. However God's opinion means everything.

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  45. And if a god exists, you have no idea what it's opinion is.

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  46. Ryan, that is what the Bible is for. And obviously God disagrees with you.

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  47. Ryan ,if you had been truly born-again you would know what God's opinion is about many things.

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  48. Ryan, you have to at least agree that the Bible disagrees with you. You are welcomed to dispute it as word of God if you like, but you have to prove that it is not. But like you said your opinion doesn't matter.

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  49. No, I don't have to. Burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim. Oh, and you can't quote the bible as evidence of the bible's authority.

    Oh, and I did watch at least the first couple parts of the John Piper video you posted regarding biblical authority (Hmmm, "authority", move the goal post from "innerrancy" I see...). John Piper's pretty bright, but I couldn't believe some of the arguments he was making. I don't recall enough to actually get in an argument about it, nor am I watching it again. The one I recall that floored me above the rest was that somehow the bible is more authoritative because we don't have any autographs and the book began life as a translation. Say what???

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  50. So you are going to wait until you see evidence that compels you to God, yet you said you experienced God when you were a "christian". That makes zero sense. Maybe you didn't understand John Piper either.

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  51. No, obviously, I only experienced what I was thought was God, although I was sure it was for 20 years. I was wrong. I’ve been wrong before and will be wrong again.

    Finding out it wasn’t God was part of a long journey, but I had the scales fall off my eyes one night reading the bible and after a long struggle, I eventually came to understand that my experiences were not based in any way on anything supernatural.

    Now, before you say "AH HA GOTCHA!!!! You never knew God!", let me say that the experience I had conformed almost exactly with the experiences of every other christian that I've ever known who have discussed their experiences with me, I would bet it probably even conforms reasonable well with yours.

    I won’t go so far as to say what other experienced was real or not, but the implication is clear.

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  52. So far what you have shared does not match my experience but those who backslide. Hopefully you really find God.

    You said:
    No, obviously, I only experienced what I was thought was God, although I was sure it was for 20 years. I was wrong. I’ve been wrong before and will be wrong again.

    You really know God for yourself for real and not be wrong about what you experience.

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