Tuesday, July 26, 2011

‪Richard Dawkins gets Propositioned in an Elevator‬‏ - YouTube

Dawkins will not show up.

‪Richard Dawkins gets Propositioned in an Elevator‬‏ - YouTube
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Debunking Christianity: Quote of the Day on Hitler, by Richard Carrier

John Loftus posted the following quote from Dr Richard Carrier

Even if Hitler had to pretend to be a Christian to get people behind his program against the Jews (and it was a public program, as Mein Kampf makes clear, and of course the fact that thousands of Germans happily carried it out), then the idea that atheism caused the holocaust is clearly refuted. [via email]

So if a man was not really a Christian and he lead thousands away from following Christian principles, then how can Christianity be at fault for the Holocaust? Hmmm. Does the Bible explain what happened? Yes it does.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. - 2 Timothy 4:3

Even if Hitler was not an atheist he sure was not a Christian.

Debunking Christianity: Quote of the Day on Hitler, by Richard Carrier
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Captain America and Superhero Worldviews, Part 1 | Reflections

Captain America's shieldImage via WikipediaKenneth Samples has started a series of post regarding Captain America and what the movie and superhero characters have to say about worldviews. I'm really looking forward to reading the rest of his series!

Captain America and Superhero Worldviews, Part 1 | Reflections
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Anders Behring Breivik, Richard Dawkins and Timothy McVeigh | True Freethinker

Mariano has posted his thoughts on Anders Behring Breivik and on the stupid argument that Christianity prescribes his actions. I agree with him. No way can a person be a born-again Christian and committed Free Mason simultaneously.

Anders Behring Breivik, Richard Dawkins and Timothy McVeigh | True Freethinker
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FacePalm of the Day #113 - John Lofus Delivers Double!

John Loftus can always be counted upon for facepalm worthy posts. Yesterday, he posted two of them.  I'm certain that Loftus and many atheists who are apostates hate having to defend their discarded Christianity. But if you now claim that what I believe has no legitimacy or power because you used to believe it then you have to answer the question as to why you didn't experience what believers say they experience.

As an ex-Christian you've heard the same spiel, "You were never a Christian." How do you respond?

I often make this argument because I think it carries weight because it forces the issue as to what a Christian is. Let's keep it simple. A Christian does the following:

23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.- John 14:23-24


9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. - Romans 10:9-10


 3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. - John 3:3

I respond in four ways:]

I have never spoken to an apostate who understood what Jesus meant about being "born again". They had head knowledge (most of the time faulty if it was anything like what they think the Bible says now) but no change of heart and mind. No humble admission of sin or the need to submit all they are to God.  Let's look at Loftus' "responses".

1) That's just one of your delusions. There are many more;

What about the apostates' delusions? If Loftus is saying that a believer is delusional then does that mean he was delusional when he believed? If so, how does he know he didn't trade one delusion for another? How does he know that he's not still delusional? Or that he used to see things clearly but now deluded? He offers no proof. No evidence. He just tosses it out there and doesn't seem to think it needs to be defended. But it does. There is no reason to accept it anymore then one needs to accept another's Christianity because they say they are or were a Christian. This is a much better explanation.

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. - 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

2) Your God promised that if I believed he would save me. I believed, so why didn't he keep his promise?;

One of two things is true. Either the Bible is wrong or Loftus (or any Apostate) didn't believe.Given that the Bible is infallible and true that would make apostates at least mistaken if not lying if they claim they really believed the message. The gospel changes you in such ways that can't be be undone. Just like a person can't be unborn once he/she is born, you can't undue the spiritual birth. Today, many apostates not only claim that they used to believe but they say now that they have no sin. Accepting your status as a sinner is the first step in salvation. Denying that makes me wonder if the apostate ever really began to understand the depths of their own sin.

3) I don't care what you think. Deal with my arguments;

This is the best response Loftus offers but he and other open themselves up to having their "Christian experience" scrutinized because they make it part of their argument. Loftus and Dan Barker and others say, "See, I used to be like, but now I know better and you should join me in my way of thinking." Anyone who uses that has got to know that people are gonna wanna know if you were truly like them. I have not met or heard a single apostate be able to prove it. 

    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ - Matthew 7:21-23

4) You're right, because there isn't any truth to Christianity. I was never saved because Jesus doesn't save anyone and that includes you.

So option 4 is to contradict every one of the other responses and hope that no one notices the baseless assumption that no one could ever provide evidence for. What is this? A playground?  I have one thing to say to apostates who would argue in this manner: "Inconsistent much?"

Debunking Christianity: My Responses to "You Were Never a Christian"

The second post deals with the disunity among Christians.

With over 30,000 different denominations and sects to choose from, Christianity bears no orthodoxy, no consistency and no authority whatsoever. It has hundreds of 'official' denominations who disagree, sometime violently on all foundational tenets of the religion. Given the general level of ignorance people have about the religion they adopt and their propensity for moulding it to be what they want it to be, one could argue that each Christian has their own denomination. We can state confidently, with evidence and reason that Christianity hasn't a clue what it believes or why. Until the Christianity’s can actually internally agree and harmonise what they believe and state why, they all remain a laughably absurd and unsubstantiated proposition to those who do not believe. Your argument is not with atheists, it's with the other 29,999 sects who view your Christianity as a joke. Link.

I've been reading Loftus' blog for a while now and he has written several posts about how atheist disagree with each other and don't have a united front. My question is should they be dismissed because they don't have their "act together"? Why not? Also I think Loftus overstates the disunity in Christianity.  Ignoring Mormonism, Jehovah Witness, and some of the other cults out there that are not Christian, every mainline denominations would agree with the definition for historic Christianity I put at the beginning of my post. Don't like it? Fine. Then let's use CS Lewis' Mere Christianity. Most of the differences we see among Christians are not salvation issues. And I doubt that most atheists like John Loftus could point to a single major difference between Baptists and Presbyterians and Methodists that is so major that one must throw the other under the bus. The joke is really that people think that this is a consistent cogent argument but yet will not apply it to atheism. There are some atheists who think Loftus is stupid.and is hurting their cause.and there are some who Loftus thinks are not help them get rid of God either.

Debunking Christianity: Quote of the Day
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Islam and Christianity A Common Word: A very simple question for Christians. (In What Sense Is God One?)

thegrandverbalizer refuses to accept Christian understanding of Christian doctrine. Instead, he prefers his straw men.

In what sense is God one? (Scriptural references are appreciated).

Let's take a moment and look at the whole passage:

4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.[a] 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. - Deuteronomy 6:4-5 (NIV)
  1. Deuteronomy 6:4 Or The LORD our God is one LORD; or The LORD is our God, the LORD is one; or The LORD is our God, the LORD alone

4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. - Deuteronomy 6:4-5 (KJV)
For example if I am part of the tribes of Israel and I hear it said to me 'Hear oh Israel the Lord your God the Lord is One'. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

What would I take away from that message? Would I have to have deep knowledge of theological and philosophy to understand this?

What if I was just a simple shepherd tending to my sheep?

So what does it say? Let us just ask what does the just plain person who was sitting in front of Moses, what did they hear? What did they understand? The Lord our God is one what? The Septuagint is of great help here. Recall Exodus 3:14

And God said (8799) unto Moses, I AM (8799) THAT I AM (8799) : and he said (8799) , Thus shalt thou say (8799) unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent (8804) me unto you.

Egw eimi? In both Old and New Testament. Jesus is claiming to be the same being who spoke to Moses from the Burning Bush. Would someone from Moses time get that? I don't think so because it wasn't revealed until Jesus did it almost 1500 years later. What the Hebrews at the time of Moses understood was that God is one being. Jesus revealed more light as to who and what God is. Did Jesus reveal more info? Yup.

I and my Father are (5748) one.
egw kai o pathr en esmen. (5748) - John 10:30
Hmmmm. Jesus used the same terminology for "oneness" as in Deuteronomy 6:4. Jesus makes a distinction between His person and the Father's person, but He makes not distinction in God's being or essence.

Cf. D. Block, has a book "How Many Is God: An Investigation into the Meaning of Deuteronomy 6:4-5," I thought this was a curious title for a book. A bit presumptuous. For example why not title the book 'How Many Beings is God: An Investigation into the Meaning of Deuteronomy 6:4-5."

After all if the Tri-Theist are going to keep coining new phrases, employing sophistry and clever semantics why presume anything?

Again with the Tri-Theist. We Christians - all of us - whether you accepts the distinction of person in the Godhead or ignore it - we all agree that God is one being. The Muslims are correct on that point. 

Why presume that God's being is 'one'? I really want to know on what basis do Christians say that God's being is one?

Why presume that God's person is :"one" as thegrandverbalizer does? The Bible doesn't. Yet the Qur'an and the Bible agree that God is one in being. 

If words have meaning what do they mean by that? Curious Muslims (and those searching for truth) want to know.

I want to know why thgrandverbalizer thinks that Christians are twisting words. We all instinctively make a distinction between  "being" and "person". No one answers the questions "What are you?" the same as the question "Who are you?" They are different categories and not the same. Here is another important point. I think that the Trinity is important but it's not a litmus test for orthodoxy. I mean there will be countless people in heaven who put their faith in what God revealed to them and not have as much of the big picture as we have today. For example, Neither Abraham, Moses, nor David knew that the Messiah's name would be Jesus, but they knew that God would provide such salvation and they trusted God for that. Neither did they know about God being triune in person. Yet we'd be stupid to think they didn't make it into heaven. 

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.- Hebrews 11:39-40

Islam and Christianity A Common Word: A very simple question for Christians. (In What Sense Is God One?)

Septuagint Info


Scripture4All - Interlinear Hebrew Old Testament

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