FacePalm of the Day - Debunking Christianity: Dr. Randal Rauser Says I Came Up With a New Argument!

I'm not real familiar with Dr Randal Rauser  but I have to respectfully disagree with him. The following "argument" by John Loftus is neither new or "novel". It is truly an example of a failure to understand what Christianity is. I thought Loftus says he used to be Christian.

I don't know whether it's new or not, but the thought tickles my fancy. A novel argument is hard to come by these days because the ancients have stolen all of our ideas! Here is what Rauser said:

John Loftus just came up with a new argument against Christianity. He summarized it like this:

1) If Christianity is true then the Christian faith will probably not die out if Christians stop proselytizing.

(2) The Christian faith will probably die out if Christians stop proselytizing.

How does Loftus know this? What evidence does he have for this?

(3) Therefore Christianity is [probably] false.

It is, if nothing else, a novel argument. Link

My argument asks What Would Happen if Christians Went on Strike?

Walter, whose Quote of the Day provoked such an argument, is defending it in the comments:

I think what John is getting at is that it might be reasonable to expect the One True Revelation from God should occur supernaturally to all people at all times, and the Christian revelation did not happen that way–it spread just like every other false religion has since man first started inventing religions.

I think Walter does not understand what happens to person when he/she is born again. Being a born-again Christian - Accepting and living out the gospel - is itself supernatural - meaning that no human being does it on his/her own or chooses to do it apart from the power of God. This make it different from ALL other religions from the start.

It bothered me in my Christian days to think that the most important event in the history of man had to be spread by the glacially slow process of word-of-mouth between mere humans. It took the Native Americans some 1500 years to get the news. Seems a rather inefficient way of doing things.

This used to bother me too before I realized that the scriptures doesn't support this viewpoint...neither does history. Christianity's growth is unprecedented and unmatched when you look at how it began with just 120 people - around a crucified prophet - and covers the planet in just 2000 years. What seems slow to us doesn't mean it's slow to God.  Also given that the majority of all those who have ever lived, lived after Jesus completed his salvation work, it seems to me that Jesus came at just the right time (just like the Bible says). And given that salvation is retroactive for everyone who has ever trusted God and walked in His ways - even if they did not understand the whole picture. For example - Abraham, Moses, and Ezekiel are just as saved as I am although I have Jesus in hindsight while they looked forward to Jesus. I have more pieces of the puzzle than they but not all of it.

A true revelation from the Creator would not need human effort to sustain it; it would propagate in a supernatural manner.

Who says the revelation of Jesus is dependent on human effort. God uses us as means to spread the Gospel but he doesn't need us. There are countless stories of people coming to become Christians without being witnessed to by human being. Check out this link containing such accounts: links here and there.

The Christian faith appears to propagate by purely natural means, and the faith would disappear if no human kept spreading the message.

Again see the links and look around for more information. There is plenty of evidence destroying such an assumption. 

An omniscient and omnipotent being who seeks to get an important message out can easily come up with a better method of communicating to humanity besides appearing to a handful of men in backwater Palestine, then commissioning these men to spread this important message to the whole world via proselytism. Such a God could easily have every person on earth experience their very own Damascus road vision. In fact, an omniscient deity could dream up all manner of supernatural means of communication that I couldn’t even imagine.

Who said that God has never revealed himself to anyone else like he did to Paul? Or that no one ever sees or experience something supernatural? There are many reports that say exactly that God still moves this way. And once you realize how truly steeped in sin and spiritually destitute we all are you begin to see the fact that anyone gets saved at all is a miracle from God. 

Keep in mind I never said I could convince Rauser of this. It's a thought experiment. For some people it will be convincing. For others it won't. The point behind it is stated well by Walter I think.

I don't think anyone who knows what God did for them would ever be convinced by such a thoughtless experiment because we know that we weren't saved just by someone proclaiming God's message but that God transformed and changed us from the inside so that we are now not the same people that we were. Walter and John Loftus completely miss the point of Christianity.

There are so many scriptures that deal with this and that is why I would not call this argument "novel". No, "Facepalm worthy" fits it so much better. Here are just a few scriptures that show my point.

First, no one comes to God on their own without God redeeming them.

⁵ Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. ⁶ The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. ⁷ The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. ⁸ Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. - Romans 8:5-8

These verses describe all of us before one comes to God. So how do you explain a person overcoming their default hostility and hatred of God? Jesus said:

⁴⁴ “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. - John 6:44

How do you come to Jesus? You believe He is who He Claimed to be. 

²⁴ I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” - John 8:24

As for why you are born when and where you find yourself:

²⁴ “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. ²⁵ And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. ²⁶ From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. ²⁷ God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.- Acts 17:24-27

And lastly, 2000 years ago it was recognized that if God was not behind or in control of the Christian movement it wouldn't last. That it would have long died out. Now I recognize that this is not the best argument because if Christianity had failed and never left Palestine it would be proof that there was nothing supernatural to it, but the fact that it survived the best efforts to destroy it does not exclusively mean Christianity is true but it does add evidence to its validity.

Gamaliel is famous. He was Paul's teacher before Paul became a Christian and on top of that He is recognized even in Judaism today. Take a look at what he said. 

²⁹ Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings! ³⁰ The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead —whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. ³¹ God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. ³² We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
³³ When they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. ³⁴ But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. ³⁵ Then he addressed the Sanhedrin: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. ³⁶ Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. ³⁷ After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. ³⁸ Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. ³⁹ But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
⁴⁰ His speech persuaded them. They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. - Acts 5:29-40

Hmmmm....looks like this movement is from God. 

Debunking Christianity: Dr. Randal Rauser Says I Came Up With a New Argument!

Related articles

• Leap of Faith or Failure of Reason? (vridar.wordpress.com)
• Bart Ehrman's Huffing and Posting Against Mythicism (vridar.wordpress.com)
• You don't know Jack (nor could you) (musasha.wordpress.com)
• Old and New Claims Being Made Over the 'Jesus Discovery' (thewesternexperience.com)

Biblical Evidence: Solomon's Temple

Dr. Claude Mariottini has recently posted two very important posts on his blog regarding 10th Century BC Israel and Solomon's Temple. He provides a couple of resources from current archaeology showing that there was indeed a centralized kingdom of Israel and there really was a King Solomon. And King Solomon really did build a magnificent temple in honor of the God of Israel.Read Dr. Mariottini's posts below:


William G. Dever and the Existence of Solomon’s Kingdom 
The Location of Solomon’s Temple

Sunday Quote: Nelson Glueck on Archaeology - Apologetics 315

Here is another great quote from the Apologetics 315 blog. It concerns the Bible and Archaeology. I love this quote. Thanks, Brian author of Apologetics 315! Great Quote!

“It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archaeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries.”

- Nelson Glueck

Sunday Quote: Nelson Glueck on Archaeology - Apologetics 315

Biblical Evidence: Part 3 - Science

The Bible is not a science book, but it does contain truths that have been confirmed by the Bible. Here is a list of scientific facts gleaned from the Bible. source

The Bible and Science

Scientific Principle	Biblical Reference
Cosmology/Astronomy
Time had a beginning	2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 1:2, 1 Corinthians 2:72
The universe had a beginning	Genesis 1:1, 2:4, Isaiah 42:5, etc.3
The universe was created from the invisible	Hebrews 11:34
The dimensions of the universe were created	Romans 8:38-395
The universe is expanding	Job 9:8, Psalm 104:2, Isaiah 40:22, Isaiah 42:5, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 45:12, Isaiah 48:13, Isaiah 51:13, Jeremiah 10:12, Jeremiah 51:15, Zechariah 12:16
Creation of matter and energy has ended in the universe (refutes steady-state theory)	Genesis 2:3-47
The universe is winding down and will "wear out" (second law of thermodynamics ensures that the universe will run down due to "heat death"-maximum entropy)	Psalm 102:25-278
Describes the correct order of creation	Genesis 1 (see Day-Age Genesis One Interpretation)
Number of stars exceeds a billion	Genesis 22:17, Jeremiah 33:229
Every star is different	1 Corinthians 15:4110
Pleiades and Orion as gravitationally bound star groups	Job 38:3111
Light is in motion	Job 38:19-2012
The earth is controlled by the heavens	Job 38:331
Earth is a sphere	Isaiah 40:2213 Job 26:1014
At any time, there is day and night on the Earth	Luke 17:34-3515
Earth is suspended in space	Job 26:716
Earth Sciences
Earth began as a waterworld. Formation of continents by tectonic activity described	Genesis 1:2-9, Psalm 104:6-9, Proverbs 3:19, Proverbs 8:27-29, Job 38:4-8, 2 Peter 3:517
Water cycle described	Ecclesiastes 1:7; Isaiah 55:10, Job 36:27-2818
Valleys exist on the bottom of the sea	2 Samuel 22:1619
Vents exist on the bottom of the sea	Job 38:1620
Ocean currents in the sea	Psalm 8:821
Air has weight	Job 28:2522
Winds blow in circular paths	Ecclesiastes 1:623
Biology
The chemical nature of human life	Genesis 2:7, 3:1924
Life of creatures are in the blood	Leviticus 17:1125
The nature of infectious diseases	Leviticus 13:4626
Importance of sanitation to health	Numbers 19, Deuteronomy 23:12-13, Leviticus 7-927

Sometimes people accuse the Bible of getting scientific facts incorrect. These are errors on the accuser's part. Here is a great article illustrating that.

Biblical Evidence: Part 2 - History

The God of the Bible is unique among how many other religions look at their god. The thing is that the God of the Bible shows Himself real and active in Human History. The Bible records real historical events that can be substantiated outside of the Bible. Furthermore we can also see the Bible makes several predictions and seeing those things come true in History. Prophecies fulfilled in History will be the focus of this post. There are three examples I will cover but there are many others.

1. The Destruction of Tyre

"Norman Geisler explains Ezekiel's prediction that the city of Tyre "would be destroyed and its ruins cast into the sea (26:2). This provoked scoffing because, when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Tyre, he left the ruins right where they fell--on the land. But 200 years later, Alexander the Great attacked Tyre and the inhabitants withdrew to an island just off the coast for safety. In order to reach them, Alexander threw all of the debris, stones, timbers, dust, and everything else, into the sea to build a causeway that would reach the island." [6] If events so far in the future can be accurately predicted, certainly the events of the past have been accurately recorded!" source

Ezekiel 26 describes the destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar and by Alexander the great. Ezekiel ministered in the 6th century BCE and The final destruction of Tyre came 2 Centuries later. Here is a great article.

2. Prediction of the major World Empires

Daniel chapter 2 recounts the story of a dream that Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon had that he wanted to be so sure of the interpretation that he demanded that the interpreter of the dream also tell him what the dream was. Daniel does just that. In chapter 2, verses 24-49, Daniel says that God is saying that three major empires will follow the Babylonians and describes them. Their names are not given, but because of the details given and the fact that 3 major empires did rise in succession we know them as the Persians, Greeks, and Romans. How do we know that this was not written after the fact. Well, this part of Daniel was written before the Persians-Medes conquered Babylon (mentioned in Daniel 5). I'm, sure some skeptics may wonder if Daniel really existed, but I'll table that for another post. The important thing now is the point that we have a biblical prediction that actually takes place in real time concerning events that the human author could not know about.

2. Alexander the Great.
The book of Daniel is an apocalyptic Book. It makes prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled, but some of them have take place. Consider Daniel 8:1-8, The Goat with big horn being split into four smaller horns represents Alexander the Great. When he died his empire was split among his 4 generals. Again this was a couple centuries before the man was even born. Recall at this time, Greece was a backwater. No one really thought that it would ever be a world player.

3. Cyrus - The great.
Cyrus King of Persia was prophesied to return the Jews from exile about 2 hundred years before the fall of Jerualem in 586 BCE and about 3 hundred years before Cyrus was even in power.

27 who says to the watery deep, 'Be dry,
and I will dry up your streams,'

28 who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd
and will accomplish all that I please;
he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt,"
and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid." ' - Isaiah 44:27,28

and look at

1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of
to subdue nations before him
and to strip kings of their armor,
to open doors before him
so that gates will not be shut:

2 I will go before you
and will level the mountains [a] ;
I will break down gates of bronze
and cut through bars of iron.

3 I will give you the treasures of darkness,
riches stored in secret places,
so that you may know that I am the LORD,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name.

4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
though you do not acknowledge me. - Isaiah 45:1-4

And the Prophecy of the returning exiles

13 I will raise up Cyrus [b] in my righteousness:
I will make all his ways straight.
He will rebuild my city
and set my exiles free,
but not for a price or reward,
says the LORD Almighty." - Isaiah 45:13

Do we have any secular evidence that this happened? Yes. The Cyrus Cylinder not only confirms Cyrus' existence but it also confirms what the Bible says that he did.

The Decree of Return for the Jews, 539 BCE
CYRUS THE GREAT

There are more examples than just these four, but I want to focus now on providing extra Biblical information substanciating Jesus.

Extra-Biblical Historical Evidence for the LIFE, DEATH, and RESURRECTION of JESUS

My friend Mariano left the following link and comment on one of my earlier blog post.

In the first 3 centuries there are at least 236 known references to Jesus.
But I know that the skeptic will complain that there are not 237.
Historical Jesus.

Biblical Evidence: Part 1- Archaeology

This is the beginning of a series of posts where I will present some of the facts supporting the Bible outside of the Bible itself. The series will have 4 parts. In this first part I will discuss archaeological evidence for the Bible. Part 2 will cover History and Prophecy. Part three will show how science "amens" the Bible. Part 4 will be about the manuscript evidence of the old and new testaments.

1. The ten plagues in Exodus are attested to in an Egyptian artifact - a papyrus dating from 1200 BCE. The papyrus is referred to as the the Ipuwer Papyrus and it's interesting because it is perfectly parallel the Biblical exodus story. The papyrus was found

2. There is mention of People and places recorded in Genesis on clay tablets in what is known as the Ebla archives found in Syria in the 1970's. sources

3. The Hittites used to be thought to a myth but their capital and records were found in Bogazkoy, Turkey beginning in 1906.

4.The Assyrian King Sargon was once thought to be a legend because the only reference found to him was in Isaiah 20 but his capital was discovered in Khorsabad, Iraq. Amazingly his conquest of Ashdod (711 BCE) is recorded on the walls of his palace just like it was recorded in Isaiah 20. Source 1 Source 2

5. The Bible has real people in it This site has a list of people in the Bible that we have physical evidence of what they may have looked like. Here is a quote:

Many of the people mentioned in the Bible are confirmed in sources outside the Bible. In the case of royalty, many times a likeness of the individual has been recovered. Over 50 persons named in the Old Testament are known outside the Bible, and we have likenesses of 12 of them. Some 27 people named in the New Testament are known from other records, with six likenesses surviving (four of them Roman emperors).

Based on current knowledge of Biblical and Egyptian chronology, the best candidate for the pharaoh of the Exodus is Tuthmosis III, who ruled 1504-1450 B.C. We have many records from his reign, as well as this statuary (see photo) of the pharaoh himself.

6. It used to be said that King David was a myth until 1993 an artifact was found bearing an inscription containing the words "House of David" found at the base of Mt Hermon. It dates from about 825 BCE and we are talking about 13 lines written in Aramaic. At the time it was written king Ahab ruled the Northern kingdom of Israel and Jehosaphat ruled Judah. The Bible reports that that Jehosaphat was a direct descendant of David.

The inscription was created by King Hazael of Aram-Damascus in about 825 BC, and it relates to his father, Hadad II, being victorious in battle against Jehosaphat (c. 860 BC). The most important aspect of the text, however, is that it specifically relates to Hadad defeating the "foot soldiers, charioteers and horsemen of the King of the House of David".

source

7. The Moabite Stone has 36 lines inscribed upon it recounting the "rebellion of King Mesha of Moab against King Jehoram of Israel and King Jehosaphat of Judah. This battle is recounted in the Old Testament 2-Kings 3:5-27."



source

8. There is a pottery Shard dating from about 800 BCE that bears an inscription in early Hebrew refers to "the Temple of the 'Bayit Yahweh'" meaning the Temple of the 'Bayit Yahweh'"House of the Lord"



source

9. A unique artifact dating from the time of the prominent Kings of Judah, who was one of the Prophet Isaiah's contemporaries, is also described and pictured in my research.

a small ivory pomegranate - vase shaped with a long neck and petals. Around its shoulder, in an early Hebrew script, is inscribed "Sacred donation for the priests of the House of the Lord ".

source

10. The Joash Tablet - Here is a quote

Recently, the press and media have been discussing another inscribed tablet that was discovered in the summer of 2000 at Jerusalem's Temple Mount. The find was made by Islamic Trust renovators of the El-Aqsa mosque which occupies part of the Haram el Sharif (Noble Sanctuary) site, and the tablet is know held by an Israeli collector.

Partially broken, the Arkosic Dead Sea sandstone tablet measures 31 x 24 x 7 cms, and carries 15 lines of text written in ancient Hebrew with elements of Aramaic and old Phoenician. It describes repairs to Solomon's Temple as ordered by Solomon's descendant, King Joash of Judah in the 9th century BC.

Joash (Jehoash) reigned about 839-799 BC and, in accord with this, carbon-14 dating by Israel's Geological Institute, under Shimon Ilani, has authenticated the inscription as being around 2,800 years old. The Institute's director, Amos Bean, reported that they had discovered flecks of gold burnt into the stone, indicating that it was probably in the Temple when the building was destroyed by invading Babylonians in about 586 BC.

In line with the Bible text of 2-Kings 12:1-6 and 11-17, the tablet describes how the King instructed the priests to "take holy money … to buy quarry stones and timber and copper and labour to carry out the duty with faith."

source


I think 10 archaeological finds that show evidence of the people and places found in the Bible more than make my point: there is real, physical evidence for many of the things the Bible says. We can confirm that many cities, places, and people described in the Bible actually existed and those that we can't we just haven't found the extra biblical evidence. But in none of this has the Bible proven false. What other book of scripture can say the same thing? None.

In addition, there are many other examples that I could cite but instead I leave it the reader to do careful study and "dig up" more facts if they are interested. The Internet makers it ridiculously easy these days, but libraries are full of information also. Here is another link to get you started: Top Ten New Testament Archaeological Finds of the Past 150 Years.