Can A Metamorphesis Be Reversed? Examining Apostasy. - Responding back

Seems Like Ryan Anderson responded back to the questions I raised. I've posted his comments below and I will Respond. He bolded my comment he specifically addresses. I'm going to make my comments in red.


Well crap, I thought those questions were posed by Hugh, not you Marcus. Oh well, that will teach me to pay more attention.

I can tell by your comments, that you need to pay more attention to not only who addresses you but to what they actually said. If denominations differ so much why couldn't you tell a difference between what I believe and what Hugh believes?

Marcus: He keeps saying that, but never has managed to proven it.
Right, just like I can’t prove Noah fought off our evil slug overlords on Pangea 175 million years ago…

Good thing the Bible doesn't say Noah fought off evil slug overlords. Therefore it has no bearing on if the Bible is right or not. Try again.

Me: But, if I go to the trouble of answering these questions for you, I'll expect a description of your "born again" experience. Fair's fair.
Again, I thought I was responding to Hugh, I already know about your “born again” experience.

I don't think you do because you said you think it's no different than your own.

Marcus: It's crime and violence against the character of God himself.
Right, so how’s that differ from “deviation from godliness”?

"deviation from godliness" fails to capture how truly bad sin is. It makes it sound like you jay walked or walked on grass when there was a sign telling you not to walk on it. It shows that you don't look at sin the way God does...maybe you never did. Sin (from failing to help someone when you can help them to mass murder and everything in between) is that bad that hell can only be the logical result.

Marcus: I was actually asking about if you consider yourself a sinner now?
And I told you I would be responding as how I understood these things from when I was a Christian. Obviously you know that I don’t believe in sin as a metaphysical thing now, but of course there are standards.

Are you a sinner according to those standards?

Marcus: the question was more directed to your condition today.
Right, see above. Pretty much everything you wrote on this, from my perspective now as an atheist, is just gibberish.

Are you morally culpable for transgressing standards today?

Marcus: “Didn't you ever pray for guidance? Didn't you ever pray for wisdom? Didn't you ever pray to be a blessing to other people? Have you ever asked God to give you patience?
Of course.

Did you get it? What about the other questions I asked about prayer. You really didn't give a full answer.

Marcus: Everyone knows that if you are honest most of the time you have no idea what you are doing….
I think I asked for specific details of instances that could not be explained naturally. Oh well, to be fair I thought I was asking that of Hugh.

I did give such instances at the end. The fact that I have experienced such instances and you haven't shows that you don't know what it's like to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or to be born-again.

Marcus: I'm not sure what your confusion is here, Ryan. Where did I say you should only go on your feelings to relate to God? When did I say that you should only use head knowledge to relate to God? I didn't.
If I say I knew scripture (I did and do), you’ll say I only had head knowledge, if I say I had a very emotional experience (I did) you’ll say I only had a “feeling”. It’s not honest on your part and answering these questions is a no win situation on mine, but hey, you can believe whatever you want, and this helps you continue to believe.

No I wouldn't. I think that you did know something about scripture. I am certain that you had very emotional experience. Those things don't add up to be born-again. The Bible says the same things about demons - they know scripture and they have emotional experiences. Also if you think those things were real why do you think that they weren't real enough to sustain your faith? You are in a no win situation because you disagree with the Bible.

Marcus: You really didn't describe your born-again experience.
Of course I did.

You said you gained head knowledge and had an emotional experience and had prayers you thought were answered. If you think that this all a born-again experience is - you were cheated.

Marcus: What sins did you stop doing after your received Jesus as your Lord and Savior?
Too many to count, drinking, smoking pot and “fornication” for three.

When you gave up Christ did you go back to those sins or any of the things you used to do.

Marcus: Did you have an insatiable hunger to read the Bible and learn more about God?
Yes.

What happened to that? And given what you have said about the Bible, I find it difficult to believe you ever learned anything about his character and who God is.

Marcus: I had a huge problem with the fact that slavery had been an institution in the United States - so much so that I thought that any white person who owned slaves had gone straight to hell. I was convicted by this when God made me realize that this thought was not Biblical. It's not part of the Gospel.
Yeah, I could have told you that… I’m pretty sure divine intervention wasn’t what made you realize that. Maybe you just grew up a little?

Yes, it was God. Given how you and other atheist think its so horrible that God does not explicitly condemn slavery in the Bible, I would think that such an attitude says "Those people deserve to be in hell (if there is a hell), not me. They owned slaves." Our society has gone out its way to condemn them and thinks of them as backward and immoral. As if we are better than them. We are not. It's harder to see that as a descendant of slaves and still living with the results of their actions. Somethings come easier to see than other things. Those things take a revelation from God.

Marcus: The word the Bible uses to say "transformed" is the same word we get "metamorphosis" from. Ryan, you claim to know biology better than I do. Therefore you know that there is not a single change described in biology as a metamorphosis that is reversible.
You will need to substantiate your assertion that the born again experience qualifies as a “metamorphosis”, and obviously it’s not a biological metamorphosis so I’ve already got that working against you.

How can it not be a metamorphosis of mind and attitude? You go from not caring or thinking of God at least and hating God at worst to handing over your life and submitting yourself and all you have control over to Him. Given that you presented yourself as a living sacrifice then crawled off the altar and now refuse to get back on that altar points to that your mind may never had been transformed. I know of sick people who became well after they became born-again so I would not be so quick to discount the biological component. And we will be getting new bodies when Jesus returns - completing the metamorphosis to what we have always intended to be (see 1 Corinthians 15 - I thought you said you knew your Bible).

Marcus: I have to wonder how much weight did it hold for you when you were a "Christian".
A lot. I’ve read it cover to cover twice and cannot tell you how many times I’ve read the Gospels and various books.

But did it change you? And why doesn't it hold any weight now. Originally, I posted several verses that tell explicitly if you leave Christ you was never a part. Did you ever understand them that way? Either you are wrong or the Bible is wrong. You both can't be right. When you were a Christian what verses bothered you and how did reconcile them with yourself? Did you say well, "I guess I'm wrong" or where they the catalyst for what you are now?

I said ”But, if I go to the trouble of answering these questions for you, I'll expect a description of your "born again" experience. Fair's fair.”
Marcus said ”It'll be at the very end of this in red.”

You never did get around to this, but that’s ok because I thought I was asking that of Hugh and you and I already discussed yours a while back and it closely resembled mine.

Yup, you really didn't pay attention. I explained about what sanctification is and how it plays a part in the on-going born-again experience and I never heard you discuss that. It's been essential to my walk with Jesus. Without it I don't know how you can stay committed to God. Because evil and hateful of godliness is what we are by default. God has to change us so that we can be in relationship with us. God is not going to change. God doesn't have to change.

Marcus: “It seems to me that if you reject the scriptures as being true now, you actually prove that they are indeed true because you are fulfilling them. They are describing you.”

Wow, the bible contains psychology and insights into human nature… amazing… Do me a favor, presuppose the bible is not true, pretend it’s the book of Mormon, the Qu’ran or something. Would you be amazed that it included some passages explaining away the fact that some people would not believe it?

We can demonstrate that the Book of Mormon and the Qur'an are wrong. Putting them alongside the Bible as being equal makes me wonder even if your really know what is any of the three. All three conflict with one another. Either they are all wrong or one of them wrong. No two of them can be simultaneously true. Do me a favor and make an intelligent argument for why you think the Bible is not true. No need to bring up the Qur'an or the Book of Mormon. We agree that they are wrong. The bottom line is you can't even live up to your own standards of right and wrong. How do you fix it?

What had happen' was.....: Can A Metamorphesis Be Reversed? Examining Apostasy.