Monday, February 13, 2012

Debunking Christianity: The OTF for Mormonism

John Loftus posted the following few paragraphs on his blog. It's obvious that it's directed against mainstream Christians who reject Mormonism.  I  don't have a problem with OTF as a concept. I think its a good idea. I just haven't seen it demonstrated that mainstream Christianity fails it. Look at what what Loftus posted before comment is made:

Mormons assume other religions have the burden of proof. They assume human not divine authors to their holy book(s). They assume a human not a divine origin to their faiths. They critically evaluate all other religions by reason and science.

They do this when rejecting other faiths. So the OTF (Outsider Test for Faith) simply asks them to do unto their own faith what they do unto other faiths. All it asks of them is to be consistent.

The OTF asks why Mormons operate on a double standard. If that's how they reject other faiths then they should apply that same standard to their own. Let reason and science rather than faith be their guide. Assume their own faith has the burden of proof. Assume human rather than divine authors to their holy book(s) and see what they get. If there is a divine author behind the texts it should be known even with that initial skeptical assumption.

So the OTF uses the exact same standard that Mormons use when rejecting other religions. If there is any inconsistency at all it is not with the OTF. It is how Mormons assess truth claims. For it should only take a moment’s thought to realize that if Mormonism is true then their God wants people born into different religious cultures to believe, and since that's the case their own religious faith SHOULD pass the OTF.

If Mormons want to reject the OTF then either they must admit they have a double standard for examining religious faiths--one for their own faith and a different one for others--or their faith was not made to pass the OTF in the first place. In either case, all of their arguments against the OTF are based on red herrings, special pleading, begging the question, the denigrating science, and an ignorance that I can only attribute to delusional blindness.

This is the argument that Thomas Riskas offers in his book "Deconstructing Mormonism."

Non-Mormonist believers, do see anything to object to here? ;-)

There is much to object - but let's keep it three objections.  John Loftus doesn't explain how he knows Mormonism fails the OTF. I agree that it does and it's quite easy to demonstrate that it does. However he insinuates that if Mormonism fails then all religions fail - yet he doesn't explain why.  

Second  these three objections: Loftus wrote -

For it should only take a moment’s thought to realize that if Mormonism is true then their God wants people born into different religious cultures to believe, and since that's the case their own religious faith SHOULD pass the OTF.

The Bible says that God puts everyone in the best possible place for them to best find Him - but like a person groping around in the darkness. He call us out of where we are - all of us if we are going to be with Him. Loftus appears to think that that it doesn't make sense for people to be born in other cultures if God wants everyone to be saved.

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
 29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.” - 
Acts 17:24-31

And lastly, Lofus doesn't understand what Biblical faith is.


Debunking Christianity: The OTF for Mormonism
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FacePalm of the Day - Debunking Christianity: David Marshall "Knows" God is Not Silent!


pics on Sodahead
I always find the argument that God does not exist because he's hidden to be such a failure, I'm surprised unbelievers can raise it with a straight face. It seems to take try to make two points: 1. God is hidden because Atheists don't detect him. or 2. Too many people have different ideas of who God is so they can't possibly experiencing anything real.  Let's examine one of John Loftus' recent posts to see just how bad this fails.

One of the arguments why Richard Carrier is not a Christian is that God is silent. David Marshall, author of several Christian apologetic books, says instead that he knows God is not silent. He said of Carrier and me that our claim is one we "cannot possibly know to be true. " Really?

Is it that God is silent or is it that Loftus and others are not listening?  I'd like to know why the fault has to lie either in God or in everyone else and not themselves? Why are we deluded and he isn't?

John:
Marshall, do you mean that we cannot PROVE God is silent? Is that the standard here? Such a standard is utterly unreasonable. That Which Disconfirms UFOs From Mars Also Disconfirms God’s Existence.

Oh okay, John Lofus admits that he can't prove that God is silent. 

David:
John: It's not a matter of proving it, it's a matter of knowing it. You can't even know it. And given that the language of nature is "read" similiarly by so many billions, and given the other ways that God speaks, you should be more skeptical of your own, perhaps unduly biased, intuitions.
David Marshall makes a point that seems obvious. He's not saying that he knows God is not silent he is saying that Loftus and Carrier can't demonstrate that God have never spoken to anyone. Again we find Loftus skeptical of everything and everyone but himself -- that is what being truly deluded is. 

John:
David, seriously, what are you talking about? Are you saying there is objective evidence coming from the subjective experiences of people around the world that all point to YOUR particular God concept or theology? If so, then tell us what all of them agree about after having these experiences. The lowest common denominator is that there is a supernatural force out there. But even then you must explain the numbers of people who have not had any such experiences, such as atheists and agnostics. To see some atheist demographics check this out.

So an Atheist or Agnostics lack of experiencing a relationship with God is not a subjective experience? Hint: Yes it is. 


Do atheists count? If so, there is no common denominator at all.
Yes, they do. The fact that they do not experience God is explained in the Bible itself. Ever read:

You also have to explain why you thin4k a majority of people in any given time period are correct. Popular opinions of one time period have given way to the advances of science. Just think the geocentric universe as but one of many examples. You would probably be the first person on some issues to say the majority opinion is not necessarily correct.

Geocentricism is a horrible example because the Bible does not tell us that the earth the center of the Universe. That was something people did. It did not come from God. 

And you also need to explain why religious people disagree about the content of said experiences. Your theory must be able to explain any disagreements. My theory is that religious experiences are subjective and therefore all in the brain, and that religious people interpret their experiences through the lens of their religious culture. Religious people have experiences and the brain interprets them within the confines of what categories they have been taught in their respective religious cultures.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.- Romans 1:28-32

There is no need to posit a God who provides these experiences, especially the one you believe in, since your concept of God is a very specific one unlike other concepts. Your God is sending mixed messages to religious people around the world, some of which are misogynist, warlike, extremely ascetic, hateful, homophobic, racist, and so forth.
I extremely disagree. The Bible is no where near that convoluted or unclear that we can't know what God is like or what He expects from us. The reason why people come to different conclusions is because we don't always just obey the Bible. We try to tack on our own spins. When we do that of course there is going to be disagreement and confusion. We need to get self out of the way and just listen to God. Jesus tells us how to answer the question for why people seem to be getting mixed messages.

1 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.
 7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
   11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
   14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”
 19 The Jews who heard these words were again divided. 20 Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”
 21 But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?” - John 10:1-21

If you are getting mixed messages - you are not one of His Sheep.

Think he'll have more to say? ;-)





I think so. I mean it's like shooting fish in a barrel. It's been answered 2000 years ago!



Debunking Christianity: David Marshall "Knows" God is Not Silent!
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Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter: First Trailer Hits - G4tv.com


Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter is a 2012 American 3D supernatural horror film based on the 2010 mashup novel Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter. The film is directed by Timur Bekmambetov and is produced by Bekmambetov and Tim Burton. The novel’s author, Seth Grahame-Smith, wrote the adapted screenplay. The real-life figure Abraham Lincoln, the 16th President of the United States (1861–1865), is fictionally portrayed in the novel and the film as having a secret identity as a vampire hunter. Benjamin Walker stars as Lincoln. Filming began in Louisiana in March 2011, and the film is being produced in 3D. It is scheduled to be released on June 22, 2012.
I have no words. I'm probably going to see this one.





Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter: First Trailer Hits - G4tv.com
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Why God Allows Himself To Lose | Claude Mariottini - Professor of Old Testament

Dr Mariottini has posted the 3rd part of his series about Jacob's theophany when he wrestled God. Check out the link to read the article!

Why God Allows Himself To Lose | Claude Mariottini - Professor of Old Testament
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