Saturday, June 18, 2011

FacePalm of the Day #92 - Debunking Christianity: Quote of the Day

John Loftus is always good for an example of a FacePalm worthy comment. He seems to have millions of them! Case in point:

All religions have the same faith-based foundation. When faith is a foundation anything can be believed. --John W. Loftus


To which the following comment was added by renolize:

Faith is the foundation and fear is the stick in Christianity. It is true, however, that with faith anything can be believed. One can look forward to any sort of an afterlife. 72 virgins? Streets paved in gold? Life in other dimensions? Gods and goddesses of their own worlds? Xenu will welcome you in person? The list goes on and on.

What will you do for your faith? Murder an abortion doctor? Fly into a building filled with unbelievers? Enslave a population? Torture heretics? Burn the unrighteous at the stake? Go to war for god?Faith is the path to blindness. Reason is a reality check. This world could use more reality checks and a lot less faith.
I am convinced that Loftus and those who agree with them are described in Romans 8:5


5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. - Romans 8:5-8


IF you are unable to reason correctly, and we know for a fact that we are not perfect in that (we all know what it is like to reason incorrectly), why would anyone of us think we can trust our reasoning to know what is right and wrong? WE cannot. None of us is that smart or awesome enough to know the right things and hit it every single time. We need God's help. This brings us up the Loftus misunderstanding of what "faith" is. Loftus is not describing Biblical faith, he is describing a faith that is not commended in the Bible at all. In Greek the word is "Pistas" and Pistas is not the reason why people murder abortion doctors, fly planes into building filled with believers and unbelievers, enslave populations, burn people we think are unrighteous, torture heretics, or start wars. This is why we have the gifs of the Bible. It is the check and balance that tells us objectively if we are living out the faith as we ought. Faith is not found on just anything and everything. Faith isn't something that is true just because you believe it. The Bible was true before I was born and it will true after I die too. Biblical faith can only be a part of your life as a gift from God of his self revelation. It is based in part on this evidence - as well as history, science, archaeology, and as well as many other things. Before Loftus criticizes faith, he should understand what "Faith" is correctly.

6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. - Ephesians 2:6-10


Debunking Christianity: Quote of the Day
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Shadeism (New Documentary) Not something I’m unfamiliar… | The Angry Black Woman



This documentary short looks specifically at how ‘shadism’ affects young women within the African, Caribbean, and South Asian diasporas. Through the eyes and words of 5 young womyn and 1 little girl - all females of colour - the film takes us into the thoughts and experiences of each. Overall, ‘Shadeism’ explores where shadeism comes from, how it directly affects us as womyn of colour, and ultimately, begins to explore how we can move forward through dialogue and discussion.



Shadeism from Shadeism on Vimeo.


Shadeism (New Documentary) Not something I’m unfamiliar… | The Angry Black Woman
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Islam and Christianity A Common Word: Protestant Christian Locks Son in Box for 2 Months!

 thegrandverbalizer is amazing to me. On one hand he decries the way Christians misrepresent Islam and give misleading information about what Muslims believe. He's right about that. It happens a lot. However he does the same things regarding Christianity.  It's just as bad.

This is actually quite sad to hear about this. However, once again why are we not shocked? We are not shocked because Christians and in particular Protestants are in the news because of their rejection of central leadership that can guide them in their interpretation of the Bible.

It's really no more shocking than when we hear about a Muslim suicide bomber in Israel or Afghanistan. Or how a young girl can be raped by her cousin and die from being lashed for adultery. Or how about  chopping off the right hand of thieves?  Or what suggesting that it is women's responsibility to act and dress in ways that don't tempt men to rape them because they have such poor self control? Or how about marrying a 10 year-old girl? Are these acts and situations indicative of what it means to be a Muslim? Are these examples of fringe nut jobs who are not following what Islam truly is or are they really living up to what Islam is?

I am a Protestant and I do not reject the central authority of scripture. I believe that the Bible is clear enough and a revelation from our creator to understand His nature and His will for our lives. What central authority do  Muslims have so that they can get the "correct" interpretation of their scriptures and pick through their textual variants? Whatever or whoever that central authority is doesn't seem to be working, given that Muslims can't seem to decide what "Jihad" is supposed to be in the world today and whether or not they should tolerate us or kill us.Just who does thegrandverbalizer thinks should be ultimate Christian authority and why?

Because Protestant Christianity is the ultimate Pandora's box. The thousands of Protestant Christian sects are free to use individual hermeneutic, interpretation, and understanding of the scriptures to understand the Bible.

As long as Islam has sects that outright contradict each other on life/death issues, I see no reason why Islam is not a "Pandora's box:" filled with whatever you want to fill it with. As for Christianity, just because people can claim to be Christians, yet totally ignore what the Bible says does not mean that we free to use whatever hermeneutic or interpretation we fancy. Either the Bible supports us or we are in outright rebellion against God and we need to realign ourselves with God. The Bible is right and all of us are wrong and a great many things (some more than others)?

You see because they believe that the Holy Spirit will guide them into all truth (not necessarily the Bible). To some degree even though the Protestants claim to rely upon the Bible the problem is in the fact that many things in the Bible are nuanced or subject to a great range and deal of interpretation.

Believers who believe that the Bible is the word of God know that the Bible is all truth and that we cannot seriously think that the Holy Spirit will lead us in anyway contrary to it. Therefore we know when we are hearing the Holy Spirit and when it's us or Satan.  I also loved how thegrandverbalizer writes "the problem is in the fact that many things in the Bible are nuanced or subject to a great range and deal of interpretation" as if  his description does not better describe the Qur'an. I sure would like to see an example of a single "nuanced" passage in the Bible "subject to a great rand and deal of interpretation."

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. (John 16:13)

So as we can see if you believe that you have the Holy Spirit (and there is no way to really tell) and Christians such as John MacArthur have failed to give legitimate litmus test. So Protestant Christianity contains with in it the seeds of it's own destruction.


We don't need John MacArthur to give us a litmus test to know if you have the Holy Spirit. The Bible gives it to us. For example, again that the Holy Spirit would never lead you in a way contrary to what the Bible says given that the Bible is the Word of God and God does not lie or change His mind. Let's not forget that some Muslims try to twist Jesus' words to says that He is speaking of Muhammad not the Holy Spirit. Just who is using a strange hermeneutic? In addition.

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
 16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
 19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 2324 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.-Galatians 5:13-16 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.


This of course is the sovereign will of the Creator. They have rejected truth and the Creator has let them to wallow in their own darkness. The thousands of Protestant sects will eventually wear one another down.

I wonder how many of these various denominations have thegrandverbalizer studies and compared to one another. I've visited many other Christian churches who belong outside of my denominations and read about several of them about what they believe and what they practice. Yes there are stark differences in many of them but very few are so different and so alien that I can't worship with them or find common ground.  What groups do thegrandverbalizer consider are mutually exclusive and why? He gave no examples.

So this brings us to this particular Mennonite Christian sect which goes back to the Protestant Reformation.

So here you have it a man who no doubt believes that the world outside has no business to tell him what he believes would be a Biblical and justified punishment for his 21 year old son goes and locks his son in a box for 2 months!

Given that the son was a 21 year-old adult, I think that a better way to punish him would have to kicked him out of the house and tell him to fend for himself if he would not submit to the authority of his parents - not to lock him in a box for 2 months. Notice what thegrandverbalizer is doing. He is trying to equate locking the man in the box as the same as corporal punishment. It is not the same at all.

Of course the Bible says it's o.k to beat your children (male and female) with a rod!

Yes, it does. And I thank God for a mother and father who didn't just let me act any kind of way and whipped me when I rebelled. This is why I'm not in jail or dead now. I thought that Muslims believe the same thing,,,oops...I got confused...a husband can lightly beat his wife if she disobeys him just not in face.

The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. (Luke 12:46-48)


Yup! And? Jesus was talking about servants not children.


If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire (Matthew 18:8-9

Of course our Christian friends who under the influence of more benign liberal influence will say this means spiritual hands and spiritual feet!

Sure I bet Jesus is saying cut off one of your spiritual feet and one of your spiritual hands, because it's better to go through life with one spiritual hand or one spiritual foot than two! When will these people come clean! 

If Thegrandverbalizer wants to take this passage literally that if your hand or foot causes you to sin, you should cut it off, that's fine, but I think he's missing the point Jesus is making. I would not say that Jesus is just talking about spiritual hands and feet. Jesus is referring to ANYTHING that causes you to sin and blocks you from God. Again the passage is not about beating Children or locking them in a box.

Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. (Proverbs 23:13-14

Ever heard the saying, "I'll beat the hell out of you" So now you got it! 

And it works too. I'm living proof of it. It's referring to not just avenging a wrong a child does. It's referring to correcting and training a child so they not only know what to and what not to do but also why. This will teach a child to reverence and obey God - keeping you out of hell. I'd think most traditional Muslims would agree with this.

He that spareth his rod hates his son: but he that loves him chasteneth him betimes.(Proverbs 13:24)


I agree. My parents whipped me and showed me right from wrong so that I wouldn't go out and act like a fool and become a danger to society and end up getting shot. I thank God for them. 

So here you have yet another Protestant Christian (Holy Spirit filled nonetheless) dishing out extreme punishment to his son!

So what else does the Bible say about how to chastise and correct Children? Here is a fundamental truth: the way we see God is influenced by the relationship we have with our fathers. Look at this parallel:

8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. - Hebrews 12-8-10

There is much in the Bible on this subject and what I would have loved to have seen is a single Biblical passage that could be used to show that a father has the right to lock his son in a box for 2 months. Instead we have a scripture that says:

 4 Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.- Ephesian 6:4

Surely no one can disagree with that. Sometimes that means handing out whipping when appropriate.


The link above is a link to the news article about a Christian parent locking his son in a box for two months. And the link below is to thegrandverablizer's post on this subject.

Islam and Christianity A Common Word: Protestant Christian Locks Son in Box for 2 Months!
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Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Good Evidence for Historical Reliability for 2 Peter as written by Peter Himself

Over at Beggars All blog, Ken has posted a very interesting article that will be very helpful to me and a lot of people. You may know that I've had sharp disagreement with Ryan Anderson regarding whether or not 2 Peter was really written by the Apostle Peter. Anderson uses the idea that because a consensus of scholars don't believe that Peter wrote 2 Peter, Peter did not write it. He accepts their arguments and therefore it's proof to him that the Bible is not inspired and not true. He went as far as calling 1st and 2nd Peter lies because the letters say they were written by Peter but he didn't write them. Of course I disagree. Ken has summarized a lot of good evidence and comments from scholars, like Dan Wallace and James White, who disagree with the "consensus" and affirm that these letter were written by the Apostle himself.

Dr. James White has a little article with an excellent graphic of an ancient manuscript of P-72
which has both I and 2 Peter (and Jude) in it.
One of the pages of this manuscript shows the end of 1 Peter and the beginning of 2nd Peter and this manuscript called P-72 is dated at around 200 AD. That is very good early dating for a copy of one of the most attacked books of the NT by skeptics, atheists, and Muslims and others, sometimes by good scholars. (the Muslims like to use Bruce Metzger as authoritative evidence that 2 Peter was not written by the apostle Peter. But many other conservative scholars and all Christians who believe in inerrancy believe that 2 Peter is "God-breathed" and was written by Peter. ( 2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20-21)


So what about scholars like Bruce Metzger and Ben Witherington III? Are they wrong to conclude that Peter did not write 2 Peter? I'm not sure. Does that mean that they are going to hell ("went" in Metzger's case given that he died) because they did not think that Peter wrote all of  2 Peter? Nope. What one believes about authorship is not a litmus test for orthodoxy. What is important is what you believe about Jesus - is He Lord of your life or not? Do you accepts his propitiatory sacrifice on your behalf and live submitted to Him? That is how you know you are born-again.

I highly recommend this article and hope that anyone who has doubts that Peter wrote 2 Peter or that the Bible is in anyway reliable will read this article along with their own research for the truth.

Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Good Evidence for Historical Reliability for 2 Peter as written by Peter Himself
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The Dunamis Word: The UN Declares "Homosexual Rights" A Human Right

Before I saw this post from Elder Burnett, I did not know that the United Nations has taken such steps:


This week, in an action specifically linked to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights 60th anniversary, France and The Netherlands initiated a proposal aimed at changing the laws of at least 77 countries that outlaw homosexuality, 7 of which require the death penalty as the ultimate punishment for the act. Reuters Reported the following:
"The European Union-backed document, noting that the 60th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was marked this month, said those rights applied equally to all people, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity.
It urged states "to take all the necessary measures, in particular legislative or administrative, to ensure that sexual orientation or gender identity may under no circumstances be the basis for criminal penalties, in particular executions, arrests or detention."
Opposition on the council noted the facts that regulation of these issues were associated with member states rights and would have some potentially devastating effects on all human rights process and understanding. See if this doesn't sound familiar:
"But the opposing document said the statement "delves into matters which fall essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of states" and could lead to "the social normalization, and possibly the legitimization, of many deplorable acts including pedophilia."..."We note with concern the attempts to create 'new rights' or 'new standards,' by misinterpreting the Universal Declaration and international treaties to include such notions that were never articulated nor agreed by the general membership," it added. This, it said, could "seriously jeopardize the entire international human rights framework."

The things that bothers me even more is that the leadership of my denomination, The Church of God in Christ, has endorsed the United Nation's Declaration Of Human Rights. Now that it's clear what it is, I cannot see how we can support it yet claim we believe the Bible. I have to say that I agree with Elder Burnett's conclusion:


Question: Now that it is CLEAR without argument or speculation, or obfuscation that the UDHR creates, endorses and defends what are considered to be homosexual rights, including the right to pursue marriage and relationships, will the leadership of the greatest church in the world, the holiness, Pentecostal fire, Church Of God in Christ Inc. of Memphis, TN. withdraw our endorsement of the document?


The question should be rhetorical and the answer should be that we should withdraw the endorsement. Prayer changes everything. We need to pray that we all obey God and seek to please Him and not what other people think.



The Dunamis Word: The UN Declares "Homosexual Rights" A Human Right
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Apologetics Video Clips for Small Groups - Apologetics 315

One of the big problems with bringing in Apologetics our churches is knowing what good materials provide good introduction to help people who haven't been studying to get up to speed quickly. Thankfully Brian Auten has posted a summary of great material one can start with! Check out his post.

Apologetics Video Clips for Small Groups - Apologetics 315
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