Thursday, May 13, 2010

Did Paul's Companions Share His Experience on the Road to Damascus?

In his latest attempt to show contradictions in the Bible, Shane appeals to an old one:

Here is another biblical issue.

Acts 9:7- "They stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one".

Acts 22:9 (regarding the same story) "they saw the light but did not hear the voice".


Both descriptions contradict each other. According to one the men with Saul saw no one but heard the voice. According to the other they did hear the voice.



Shane further tries to shore up his contention by providing the further argument:

Here's a piece of information.

The NIV version and the NAS version try to remove the contradiction in Acts 22:9 by translating the phrase as "did not understand the voice". But the Greek word "akouo" is translated 373 times in the NT as "hear", "hears", or "heard" and only in Acts 22:9 is it translated as "understood".

I nfact, the word "understood" is occurs 52 times in the NT, but only in Acts 22:9 is it translated from the Greek word "akouo".

I appreciate Shane carefully checking out the text. I think he has put his finger on the point of the contention: In the context of Acts 22:9 does "akouo" mean "understand" or "hear" in the same way as "hear" in Acts 9:7. "Akouo" is in both Acts 9:7 and Acts 22:9. Does this mean that "hear" means the audible experience of sound waves bouncing off the ear drum and sending information to be interpreted by the brain? Or does it mean to harken or responding to what is heard? Again context matters.

If you follow both accounts they are parallel and follow the same flow. We are told what Jesus tells Paul before we are told what his companions reaction was.In addition in the context of the Greek text the difficulty is that in greek Akouo at times mean to hear and in other instances to understand. So which is it? Which one makes more sense. We have a single author in Acts. Why would he give an account in Chapter 9 conflicting with what he says Paul says in the 22nd chapter. Luke is not a moron or an idiot...he is careful in everything he writes and much of it can be corroborated with other evidence and none can rebut it. Therefore, I certainly think that understand is a correct translation of Act 9:22. We use "hear" even in English to mean "understand". How often do I feel like telling Shane, "You are not hearing me!" Would anyone think that I'm saying that he does not know I'm communicating with him in my writing? No they would understand I am saying that he does not understand.

One might wonder if I'm just blowing smoke by suggesting that the King James Version has missed the thought being expressed in these verses? Um....no.

In fact, the man known affectionately among theologians as the “dean of Greek scholars,” A.T. Robertson, wrote in regard to the difference in cases:

In 22:9 Paul says that the men “beheld the light” (to men phos etheasanto), but evidently did not discern the person. Paul also says there, “but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me” (ten de phonen ouk ekousan tou lalountos moi). Instead of this being a flat contradiction of what Luke says in 9:7 it is natural to take it as being likewise (as with the “light” and “no one”) a distinction between the “sound” (original sense of phone as in John 3:8) and the separate words spoken. It so happens that akouo is used either with the accusative (the extent of the hearing) or the genitive (the specifying). It is possible that such a distinction here coincides with the two senses of phone. They heard a sound (9:7), but did not understand the words (22:9) [1930, pp. 117-118, parenthetical items in orig.].

Consider also the words of Greek expert Ray Summers:

Some verbs take their object in a case other than the accusative. There is a variety of usage at this point. Akouo may take its object in the genitive or the accusative. Usually akouo with the genitive means “to hear without understanding.” This probably explains the difficulty involved in Acts 9:7 and 22:9. The incident is the experience of Paul in seeing the light and hearing the voice on the road to Damascus. Acts 9:7 states that Paul’s companions heard the voice (akouo with the genitive); Acts 22:9 says they did not hear the voice (akouo with the accusative). Thus both constructions say the same thing; the companions of Paul did not understand what the voice said to Paul; to them it was unintelligible sound (1950, p. 51).

Numerous other Greek scholars have expressed the same viewpoint (see, for example: Arndt and Gingrich, 1957, pp. 31-33; Blackwelder, 1958, p. 139; Kittel, 1993, p. 216; Thayer; 1979, pp. 22-23; Vincent, 1975, p. 571; and Vine, 1985, p. 296). The word “hear” in Acts 22:9 can be used to indicate that it was a sound—not a voice—that the men heard on the road to Damascus. Source: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/533

What I'm saying is that there is no contradiction between Acts 9:7 and Acts 22:9. Again you have to wrestle the text out of context and then read the problem into the text.

Some more links that will help to Akouo the text.

All passages that contain "akouo" in Acts.
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon - Akouo
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20 comments:

  1. Marcus.

    Yes, I too researched and came up with similar findings about this. But many believe your answer is purely theological and not grammatical or lingiustic. In fact down right intellectually dishonest.

    Let me give you some examples.

    Matthew 13:23 "But he that recieves good seed into the good ground is he that hears (akouo) the word and understands (suniemi) it".

    You can see two different words are used to say hears and understands!

    Matthew 15:10 "Hear (akouo) and understand (suniemi)".

    Mark 4:12 "...and hearing they may not hear (akouo), and not understand (suniemi).

    Also, you can see that Mark did not use "ouk akouo" when he said (understand).

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  2. Sorry, that last part was suppossed to say "not understand" Mark did not use "ouk akouo" to say "not understand".

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  3. Marcus.

    Basically, to say "akouo" in Acts 22:9 is refering to understand, is just changing the meaning to suit the theologians purpose!

    If the author of acts was really trying to say "understand" why wouldn't he have used the word "suniemi" (understand)?
    This word is used many times in the NT, and used in the same contexts as Acts 22:9????

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  4. Shane, "Suniei" is not used in Acts 22:9. Akouno is. Your example does not make sense because Luke did not write Matthew or Mark. You are asking me to believe that the same author used the same word differently in the same context? Who does that? I provided 2 recognized Greek scholars who agree with me. Who do you got? So far all I've found is Dan Brown and trust me - he's a joke. Did you even look at the lexicon link I posted on this post? With it you can look at every place Akouo shows up in the New Testament and how it's used and translated. You can even cross-reference with different translations.

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  5. Marcus.

    I did not read anything by Dan Brown, I got some of my info from Dan Barker. Maybe thats who you meant.
    If yoyr suggesting he is a joke, it is only because he says it like it is and apologists hate him for it.

    Your right "suniemi" does not show up in acts 22:9, because "suniemi" means to "understand" and that is not what the greek says. It says to hear "akouo" which is what it means.

    I gave you examples where "akouo" and "suniemi" are used in the same sentance, this shows they have different meanings!

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  6. Marcus.

    Im asking you to think the same author wrote Mat, Mark, and acts, Im giving the greek words for hear and understand.

    Dont you think that if the bible were the word of God, that it would be written and translated in proper grammatical form to make sure it was properly translated and understood, instead of having to say certain words have to be taken in a less straight forward manner?

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  7. Sorry Marcus, I meant to say NOT ASKING YOU to think the same author wrote those books, my apologies for messing up the begging of my post.

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  8. Marcus.

    Anyway, I'll probly talk to you at debunking, ttyl.

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  9. Marcus.

    If Dan Barker lost debates its because no one can prove there is no God. As far as his debates regarding the truth of the bible I've listened to a about three of them, and two of them he made look stupid, all they could do was appeal to the supernatural and make threats of hell!

    So what your saying is that God decided to inspire the original authors so they could record the truth that saves souls....BUT....he decided not to equally inspire the translaters of that saving truth, and instead allowed them to make errors????

    This makes a whole lot of sense Marcus....?....think about what you wrote here and how stupid that sounds!

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  10. Marcus.

    You are twisting things around again.

    You said, "in acts 9:7 "akouo" is used, And I still dont see why you think Luke would change the story in 22:9"

    No kidding!, that is the issue, maybe he made a mistake plain and simple.
    Its more plausable that he made a simple error, then to say he meant "understand" instead of "not hear", since he did not use the greek word "suniemi" which means understand, but used "akouo" which means to hear!

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  11. Depending on the context "akouo" can mean "understand". check out the lexicon page I posted. That is why context is important. That is how you know what is being said! Why would you think Luke making a mistake is more plausible than to just look at the context? I'm not twisting anything to fit a worldview, you are.

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  12. Marcus.

    You admitted that only the original text is inspired, and translations are not inspired.

    If this is the case, then how can you tell me what the actual context is?
    You cant appeal to the divine word of God because you are only reading from a translation, you dont have an original to go by.

    In fact, how can you know if any of your bible based belief's are accurate if they are prone to human error? (remember, only the original text is inspired).

    If you are going to pick and choose which scriptures are accurate and which are not, then your playing God!
    If you say you know all scripture is accurate, then you are lying because if none of the translaions are inspired no one can claim inerrancy!

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  13. Dont worry, I have more....lol....I just randomly choose these one's, I have better one's if you really want a challenge

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  14. Shane, through textual criticism we know what the original text said and we can be confident in the good translations. And we have enough information to determine if a translation is good or not. The KJV, NIV, and NASB are great translations. Choosing one translation over another is not pick or choosing scriptures because translations of scriptures are not scripture

    Feel free to propose more scriptures because so far there is nothing new.

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  15. Marcus.

    Nothing I post will be new, the bible is not new and neither are its errors.

    So first you say only the original text (which does not exist anymore) is divinely inspired.

    Then you tell me "we can know through textual criticism what the original text said"?

    This is a long shot even for you Marcus....lol....

    Two things, first, the KJV was the only translation we had since the 1500's. All other versions have been copied and revised from the KJV, unless they copied from an older Greek source.
    Eitherway, no copies we have today are copied from an orginal so that gets you no closer to the original inspired text....lol....

    Second, the fact we even have to use textual criticism to find out what the original text even said, gives us a clue that the bible is not a divinly inspired book, otherwise God would obviously inspire the translators too if the gospel was meant to save all people?
    Otherwise what would be the point of inspiring any of it????

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  16. Shane, do u ever read over what you write? you said:

    Every other english translation we have in print today is newer than the KJV and are based on better Greek and Hebrew manuscript evidence because the translators had more information to go. All our copies are based on the originals. You can tell by how closely the copies resmemble one another - this what textual critics do! not to mention all the other ancient translations we have to compare against - Coptic, Latin, Syrian, and others. We can be sure we know what the original text says so the best you can say is the you disagree with it, but you can't say you don't know what it says.

    Why would God have to inspire the translators? Does that really make sense? We have no excuse. Between the multiple translations and access to the texts themselves, neither one of us has an excuse for not know ing what the Bible says.

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  17. You still haven't pointed out a single error in the Bible...I'm waiting.

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  18. Marcus.

    You said "our copies ar based on the originals"?

    What originals? no orginals exist? All we have are copies of copies from century after century!

    If your trying to say that nothing has ever been added, subtracted, or changed from the originals to now, then I think your simply making a leap of faith on this, because there is centuries worth of room for any of these things to have happened!

    I have pointed out errors, you simply choose to ingore them.

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  19. Marcus.

    I guess its time to move on.

    Here is another biblical issue.

    There is a huge mistake regarding Jesus triumphal entry.

    According to Mark, Luke, and John, Jesus entered the city riding on A donkey.

    According to Matthew, Jesus is said to be riding on two donkey's? (Matthew 21:1-7).

    Matthew mentions two animals in three of the verses so it cannot be explained away as a translation error. Matthew even has Jesus riding both animals at the same time.

    This is because Matthew obviously must have misunderstood (Zechariah 9:9) which says "mounted on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a donkey".
    Anyone who is familiar with OT Hebrew would know that the word translated "and" in this passage does not mean another animal, but instead its used in the sense of "even" a colt!

    "Even" is given for emphasis here!
    Matthew was evidently not aware of this.

    This is but one example I am prepared to offer here that shows Matthew's gospel is full of fulfilled prophecies working the way Matthew wanted them to. And that Matthew in his zeal to prove Jesus was the Messiah, searched the OT for passages that could be construed as prophecy and modified events Jesus life to fulfill them!!!!

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