Tuesday, March 1, 2011

Is there a Connection Between Jesus and Perseus?

I actually like the story of Perseus. He manages to save a damsel in distress, save his Mother, and kill the Medusa. Nice guy. There is an internet meme going around trying to assert that Perseus was the model for what Christians say Jesus is,. Just how much like Jesus is Perseus? Not at all. Here is a list of how much Perseus is not like Jesus. using the standard points that are claimed to be common between Jesus and Perseus. I'm going to add my comments in italics,



According to the critic here, Perseus:

1)  Had a god for a father
Yes, his father was Zeus


2)  Had a human virgin for a mother.
In some versions, this is true, though the details hardly match those of Mary.  According to the legend, his mother was Danae, son of Acrisius.  An oracle told Acrisius that his grandson would kill him, so he shut Danae in a bronze room or tower.  Zeus came through the roof and sent a shower of gold into Danae's lap, which grew into Perseus.


5)  Had his birth announced by a heavenly display.
I'm finding no reference to this for Perseus  

Neither could I.

6)  Had his birth announced by celestial music.
I'm finding no reference to this for Perseus (or for Jesus, for that matter).

Neither could I.

7)  Was born about DEC-25
I can't find any sources giving any birth date for Perseus.  And once again, Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25

8)  Had an attempt on his life by a tyrant when he was still an infant.
Again, true.  Again, not really comparable to Jesus.  When Perseus' grandfather, Acrisius, found out that he existed, he locked Perseus and his mother in a trunk and set it adrift in the sea.

However it does sound like Moses. They must have stolen it, Moses came first.

9)  Met with a violent death.
Depends on which version you read.  In many versions, Perseus battles Dionysus.  In some version, Dionysus slays Perseus.  In others, Perseus slays Dionysus.  In others, they slay each other.  In others, neither is slain.  Even in those in which he dies, the story doesn't match Jesus at all.

 Although I would say Dionysus was demonic like the Devil, the Greeks did not see it that way. None of the Gospels don't match such convolution at all. 

10)  rose again from the dead.
Not in any version.

This is one of the main points.  Jesus died but he didn't stay dead. Perseus did.  I picked the images on this post because it was on the cross that Jesus won his greatest victory and juxtapose it with Perseus' greatest moment. Ask yourself what good is it to you if Perseus' story is true. What does it matter to you if Medusa was killed. But what about Jesus? Because of his victory, those who put their faith in Jesus we can have victory over sin and death. Jesus wins this one just like He always does.

UPDATE
Ryan Anderson wrote a comment prompting an update to this post. He claims that there is a reference to Perseus being resurrected and that it is likely that the Gospel writers were inspired by the Perseus myth.

Only one writer of the Gospels was a Gentile. There is no reason at all to think that Perseus inspired the Gospels in any way. Sure would like to see you prove otherwise, Ryan. In what ways are the Gospel accounts of Jesus similar to Perseus?

I looked up the reference you mentioned in "Proitos and Danae". I did find a reference in a book on page 300 entitled "Python: a study of Delphic myth and its origins" By Joseph Eddy Fontenrose. It's actually in Google Books at this link Fontenrose wrote that Persus came back from the darkness with the help of Hermes and Athena. He equates this resurrection. How is this Resurrection? Perseus did not die and return to life. Instead, he was on his quest so long that people thought he died. The writers of the Gospels said Jesus actually physically died and then rose again. This isn't the same thing.

I found another reference to Resurrection and Perseus. It is found at this link. The author makes a reference to Perseus' name meaning "breaker". The author ties this to Perseus freeing Andromeda from the chains she was bound to and calling them the chains of death - thus deriving resurrection as being freed from death. Of course to get this some serious gymnastics were used through Hebrew and Greek that can't be substantiated. For example Romans 16:3 is given as a reference where the Greek form Perses, or Perseus can be found and its alleged that it's related to the Hebrew word "peretz". When one looks at what Romans 16:3 says:

Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too. - Romans 16:3

I see nothing in the verse that says what the author says it does. I think that more and destroys the author's argument that Perseus' experience has anything to do with resurrection.

There is another link I have seen at the link at Hero's Journey. However, it does not help make the case of proving that Perseus was resurrected.

If Ryan Anderson,or anyone, is willing to make an argument proving that the Gospel account comes from Perseus life, I'd like to see it. Any takers?


Links:
Pre-Christian Sources:
Apollodorus on Perseus (2nd century B.C.)
Ovid, "Perseus And Atlas" (Late 1st century B.C. or early 1st century A.D.)


Sources
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/religion/blgrk_heroes05.htm
http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/JesusPerseus.html
http://www.gods-heros-myth.com/godpages/perseus.html
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41 comments:

  1. I just happen to do a paper on the Erechtheum in college and Perseus' resurrection came up in a very round about way. His resurrection is noted in a fragment known as "Proitos and Danae", but you'll probably have to go to an actual university library to confirm that. Plus, I figure "Proitos and Danea" probably has less to do with Jesus and more to do with Mallory's La Mort d'Arthur, but it no doubt in some very small way probably informed the greek writers of the Gospels.

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  2. Thank you, Ryan Anderson. You gave me something to improve and update my post. I would like to see you explain in what "very small way probably informed the greek writers of the Gospels", given that you admit that the Perseus myth has more in common with King Arthur than with Jesus.

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  3. Only one may have been a gentile, but all four (Paul too) where Hellenized. I think the "Jesus as Pagan Myth" argument fails in it's most common form because people try to link Jesus with another specific mythical character, which is definitely over paying the hand, and it takes away from the fact that virgin births, "sons of gods" trips to and from the underworld and resurrections were common in Greek and Roman mythology. Mythology was a large part of the culture that the writers of the NT had been steeping in their whole lives.

    Also Marcus, not everything is on the internet. Like I said, you probably have to find the actual fragment. Megapenthes definitely killed him. It wasn't just that he was away a while and people thought he was dead. You also have to remember that there was not one canonical version of any of these myths. You can't point to one lonely version from Samothrace in the 2nd Century BCE (for example) and say definitively "See, this never happen to [insert mythical character]". Those myths were supple and varied.

    Obviously, I don't have enough interest in this argument to make a trip back to my university and find that reference, so if you like, I concede, Perseus was nothing like Jesus, at least on the intenet.

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  4. Can you prove that the writers of the New Testament were Helenized? Just because they used the Septuagint does not prove they were Helenized. And given that most of the Jews in Palestine were so very opposed to Greco-Roman culture it seems silly to think that they would copy a culture they hated. They wanted to get rid of the gentiles - not join them - that was until they understood Jesus' mission. And then it the gentiles would join them not the other way around.

    Also given that there were so many different versions of the Perseus myth as well as all the other Pagan myths, how do you know which version the Gospel writers had (if at all since many critics say most of them were illiterate) and given that there is only a single reference to Perseus being resurrected that I could find?

    You should admit that you don't have good evidence that there were Resurrection stories of Perseus even close to Jesus and not concede just because you are lazy or disinterested. If you weren't interested you would not habe made the comment chalkenging this post.

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  5. Just to be clear I don't think that the majority of writers of the New Testament were illiterate and the everyone in the first century understood that resurrections that the pagans discussrd were not the same Christians talk about. We know this because of the reaction the Greek philosophers gave Paul in Athens. As soon as he said Jesus rose from the dead they started saying he was crazy. If they were already familiar with conceots Christians were proclaiming why didn't they say "Ok, well maybe it's possible. Our gods did it too?" Simple because they didn't equate anything Zeus,Dionyses, Perseus, or any of the others to what Paul said about Jesus in Acts 17. Look it up.

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  6. Marcus; I don't think they are "similar", but Perseus is definitely killed by Megapenthes and is brought back from "across the sea" (a common allusion to death) by Athena and Hermes. There is solid literary evidence for this, you just can't access the source via the internet. That's actually an important lesson for all you internet apologists who want to play at being ancient near eastern historians. It's a fragment from Pindar, if you want to look it up, good on you, but I'm not doing your homework for you.

    Can you prove that the writers of the New Testament were Helenized[sic]?

    Are you freaking kidding me?????? Just when I thought you were taking a turn for the rational... I should have known better.

    As for your last post, the Athenian intelligentsia didn't actually believe their own myths in a literal way. It was more about what aspect of the human condition does this myth speak to. Your myths should be approached the same way.

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  7. Marcus; I don't think they are "similar", but Perseus is definitely killed by Megapenthes and is brought back from "across the sea" (a common allusion to death) by Athena and Hermes. There is solid literary evidence for this, you just can't access the source via the internet. That's actually an important lesson for all you internet apologists who want to play at being ancient near eastern historians. It's a fragment from Pindar, if you want to look it up, good on you, but I'm not doing your homework for you.

    Thanks for the fuller reference.But you admit that you don't think they are similar but that is what the post is about. So we agree. No one is trying to play at being Middle Eastern Historian. And I've qualified everything I've written in this post by saying that I am speaking from the information I have available to me. You have provided a reference but still admit that it does not show that doctrines about Jesus came from myths about Perseus. You have just bolstered my point and I thank you.

    Can you prove that the writers of the New Testament were Helenized[sic]?

    Are you freaking kidding me?????? Just when I thought you were taking a turn for the rational... I should have known better.

    So if I agree with you, I'm rational, but if i disagree with you, I'm not rational. Seems like you need to get that checked. You disagreed with the statement that there are no resurrection stories for Perseus but you admit that the citation is obscure. How do you know that the Jews living in the first century even knew about it. What is the date for it? You have a real problem if it dates after 100 AD. I gave rational reason why I said it was wrong for classify the writers of the New Testament as Hellenized. Why is your response irrational? i expected you to come back with what you meant by calling them "Hellenized". Really sad.

    As for your last post, the Athenian intelligentsia didn't actually believe their own myths in a literal way. It was more about what aspect of the human condition does this myth speak to. Your myths should be approached the same way.

    My point was that even if the people who wrote the New Testament knew of the pagan myths, neither they nor the Athenians in Acts 17 understood the pagan "resurrections" as being the same as what Jesus did and promised his Followers. It doesn't matter if the Athenians took their myths literally or not. Where is your proof that they didn't take they're myths literally, because I am certain that many Greeks and Romans did.

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  8. I have been able tom confirm that one way Perseus' story plays out that he is killed by his half brother Megapenthes because Perseus had killed his father, Proitos. Afterward Perseus was made immortal and placed in the stars - literally explaining the star constellation that bears his name.

    How does this even remotely resemble Jesus' resurrection? It doesn't. Perseus become a star constellation! I mean his body is now supposedly made up of stars! How or why would that inspire Jews in the first century AD to make up a savior physically rising from the dead? It wouldn't

    Ryan Anderson pointed out that the story was found in the poems of Pindar (Greek: Πίνδαρος, Pindaros; Latin: Pindarus) (ca. 522–443 BC). So it does pre-date Christianity but fails to bolster those who support the "Christ Myth". Turns out that there are indeed much on the Internet on this stuff, once you know to search for "Pindar" and "Megapenthes"

    Perseus
    Megapenthes, son of Poitos
    Perseus - Greek Hero Perseus
    MEGAPENTHES
    Pindar - Wikipedia

    I do find discrepancy. Ryan, you say that Pindar recounts Perseus' death in a fragment but i found a source that dates tom the 2nd century AD and that it is obscure and the only document that has the story. It's in Latin noy Greek.

    Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 244 (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) :
    "Men who killed their relatives . . . Megapenthes, son of Proetus, killed Perseus, son of Jove [Zeus] and Danae on account of the death of his father."

    source

    You can read an English translation of the HYGINUS, FABULAE

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  9. So if I agree with you, I'm rational, but if i disagree with you, I'm not rational.

    Not at all, you are irrational when you ignore firmly established historical facts. Judea was Hellenized in the 4th and 3rd Century BCE and remained so until the 2nd Centrury CE. It's the same as if you were telling me I can't prove the Soviets took Berlin in 1945.

    Also, Pindar dates to the 6th and 5th century BCE.

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  10. Not at all, you are irrational when you ignore firmly established historical facts. Judea was Hellenized in the 4th and 3rd Century BCE and remained so until the 2nd Centrury CE. It's the same as if you were telling me I can't prove the Soviets took Berlin in 1945.

    Again with the misunderstanding. "Hellenized" means more than just being conquered. I did not deny that the Jews were conquered by the Babylonians, then incorporated into the Persian, Greek, and then Roman empires (just like Daniel wrote and predicted). Look again what I said. I was talking "culturally"!!! Ever read the Maccabees when the Greeks tried to force Greek religion on the Jews who lived in Palestine? If you haven't, you should.

    Also, Pindar dates to the 6th and 5th century BCE.

    I suppose you missed my follow up comment. Refresh please

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  11. How does this even remotely resemble Jesus' resurrection? It doesn't.

    Yeah, that’s not the fragment I’m talking about. And what you just posted doesn’t remotely resemble Jesus’ resurrection myth. But the version I’m talking about had Perseus brought back from across the sea. Remember, you’ll probably have to get off the internet to confirm this further.

    And remember the part where I said “I think the "Jesus as Pagan Myth" argument fails in it's most common form because people try to link Jesus with another specific mythical character, which is definitely over paying the hand, and it takes away from the fact that virgin births, "sons of gods" trips to and from the underworld and resurrections were common in Greek and Roman mythology. Mythology was a large part of the culture that the writers of the NT had been steeping in their whole lives.”? I essentially agree with you that Jesus is not Perseus, nor is he Osiris or Mithra. Just like Gimli is not Rumpelstiltskin, but Tolkien owes a debt to the Grimm brothers none the less. In the same way, Greek virgin births, "sons of gods" trips to and from the underworld and resurrections were common in Greek and Roman mythology and that clearly influenced the Hellenized, Roman occupied culture that produced the myths you cling to.

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  12. Yeah, that’s not the fragment I’m talking about. And what you just posted doesn’t remotely resemble Jesus’ resurrection myth. But the version I’m talking about had Perseus brought back from across the sea. Remember, you’ll probably have to get off the internet to confirm this further.

    What is the name of the fragment? I would think that there should be some mention of it somewhere on GGoogle or Bing. Some place to start. Perhaps give the name of the Professor you had that taught that to you. some proof. Some evidence would be nice.

    And remember the part where I said “I think the "Jesus as Pagan Myth" argument fails in it's most common form because people try to link Jesus with another specific mythical character, which is definitely over paying the hand, and it takes away from the fact that virgin births, "sons of gods" trips to and from the underworld and resurrections were common in Greek and Roman mythology. Mythology was a large part of the culture that the writers of the NT had been steeping in their whole lives.”? I essentially agree with you that Jesus is not Perseus, nor is he Osiris or Mithra. Just like Gimli is not Rumpelstiltskin, but Tolkien owes a debt to the Grimm brothers none the less. In the same way, Greek virgin births, "sons of gods" trips to and from the underworld and resurrections were common in Greek and Roman mythology and that clearly influenced the Hellenized, Roman occupied culture that produced the myths you cling to.

    I still see nothing that proves that the writers of the New Testament were "steeped" in Greek culture and thought. Where is your proof? One problem that
    gentiles had with Jews was that kept themselves so separate. I want to see you provide proof for the assertions you are making.

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  13. The fact that you don’t realize (or accept) that Jewish culture underwent a Hellenization period over the course of 300-400 years is baffling to say the least, and frankly, signals that the conversation is over. In parting however, you should know though that the Hellenization of Jewish culture is as firm of a fact as any that we can have in the study of history. Add to that the authors of the gospels 1) wrote in Greek and 2) two of them appear to actually have been Greek and all I can say is that you are merely kicking against the pricks.

    As to your reference to the Maccabees, you are missing the point. Was Vietnamese culture more or less Western after the period ending 1950-1973? Did or did not the Vietnamese mightily resist and defeat both the French and the US? If you answer yes to both those questions (and you really have to, because the answers are yes), then maybe you’ll see where your point fails.

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  14. You can spend 5 minutes on your precious Google or Bing to confirm the evidence of the Hellenization of Judea. Mockery is more than appropriate in this situation, but I’ll abstain, mainly because I’m just baffled... however, this is far, far worse than your notion that Noah lived on Pangea.

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  15. Ryan, your are exaggerating the impact of Greek culture on Judea in the first century AD. I asked you for proof of why you think that someone like Peter would have known anything about Greek pagan myths or cared? The Jew of Jesus' day in Judea defined themselves by their rejection of Greek values and culture and adhered to the Jewish tradition and culture. You have provided no proof at all. I wish I had been clearer. I did not mean that the Jews of Jesus experienced zero effect from the Grecco-Roman world. Seems to me that you think that is what I meant. Let me be clearer: Jewish religion and culture was purposely quarantined from the major encroachment from pagan ideas as much as they could. I provided sources for this view. You have provided nothing but name calling and no sources. I've come to expect nothing more from you and you always deliver. It's real sad.

    Jews chose to die rather to accept Greek idolatry before the Romans took over and when the Romans came as long as they paid their taxes and kept quiet, the Romans basically let the Jews practice the religion they wanted without too much relative input. The major changes included that the Jews could not just execute people and the Romans chose their high priests and kings.

    I expected more rationality from you.

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  16. Idiot (mockery is absolutely appropriate here).

    Also, you never answered my questions about Vietnam.

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  17. I thought it was rhetorical. I'll answer yours after you answer my questions that I asked first.

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  18. The unanswered questions for Ryan Anderson:

    I asked you for proof of why you think that someone like Peter would have known anything about Greek pagan myths or cared?


    I still see nothing that proves that the writers of the New Testament were "steeped" in Greek culture and thought. Where is your proof? One problem that
    gentiles had with Jews was that kept themselves so separate. I want to see you provide proof for the assertions you made.

    Where is Pindar's fragment? Where did you see it? At what university did you see it? What was the name of the Professor who taught your class? What was the name of the book you saw it in?

    Do you really think you can equate the occupation of Vietnam by French and American forces with the Roman occupation of Judea and ignore the lengths Judean Jews went through to keep themselves separate? Can you show that Greek culture changed how the Jews worshipped and thought of Yahweh?

    Do you really think that writing in Greek changed their religion any iota?

    Answer these questions because you just ignore responding to most of the points I brought up and I'll answer yours about Vietnam?

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  19. Well, I notice most of your question are 1) not question and 2) essentially the same thing. Basically they all reduce to "Can you show that Jewish [insert aspect] changed because of Hellenistic influence.

    See this, this, this and this to get started on the Hellenization of Judaism.

    Pindar's fragment was in an codex at the University of Central Florida. The professors name was Robert Flick. My bibligraphy entry merely states "Proitos and Danae, Pindar ff". Wish I could provide more.

    Do you really think that writing in Greek changed their religion any iota?

    This is a yes/no question, but I suspect you want me to elaborate, so I'll just say see links above.

    And I'll defer answering your question about if I think you equate Vietnam and Judea until you answer my question about Vietnam. Even still, your question reduces to what I paraphrased above.

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  20. Well, I notice most of your question are 1) not question and 2) essentially the same thing. Basically they all reduce to "Can you show that Jewish [insert aspect] changed because of Hellenistic influence.

    I don't think you really read anything but just jump to conclusions. Did you not understand me when I took my time to explain that you are using Hellenization to refer to the broad influence Greek culture would have made on the Jewish people and then applying that to say that the Writers of the NEW Testament had to be influenced by the Greeks. When I disagreed I was referring to what they Believed and was willing to die for and their worldviews. I see many differences between the worldview of 1st Century Jews, presented in Josephus and the New Testament, and classical Greco-Roman culture. I get the feeling that you disagree with that statement. I was asking for proof that Judaism became like Greek, not that Greek did not have an influence.



    These links don't respond to any of the points that I brought up. Jewish rebellion under the Maccabees was a resistance over Hellenization. I never denied that Greco-Roman Culture did not impact on Jews. I denied what you said about the writers of the New Testament. There is no evidence that they, the pious Jews of the 1st Century AD were so Hellenized that they would take such pagan influences to serve their needs. The links you gave don't cut it. I'm asking about the details. You are still on the surface. You seem to think that I am denying any Greek influence on Judean culture and I'm not. Let me spell it out: There is no evidence that anything written in the New or Old Testaments came from any previous source when you compare them. You have given no answer to all the examples I gave as to how Jews resisted being Hellenized - and that includes the times of the New Testament. I was hoping that you could do better than this.


    Pindar's fragment was in an codex at the University of Central Florida. The professors name was Robert Flick. My bibligraphy[sic] entry merely states "Proitos and Danae, Pindar ff". Wish I could provide more.

    What was the name of the codex? What Bibliography are you looking at? What book? If you can't give anymore information than this, it makes me think that you haven't really looked it yourself (since you said you didn't care). I thimnk that you have confused two stories of Perseus. The only reference I can find to Athena and Hermes helping Perseus across the ocean is when he went to see the blind sisters (who shared a single eye and a tooth) to find out where Medusa was. Perseus used a pair of sandals with wings on them. Perseus' fight with MEGAPENTHES would have been many years after that.

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  21. I think you underestimate the subtle influences that "culture" has on everything. We can see it in the Old Testament (see links).

    What Bibliography are you looking at?

    The bibliography on a paper I typed on a type writer in 1993. Like I've said, a fraction of all scholarship is on the internet. I'm sure you can find it based on my bibliography entry at a university. Is UCLA near by?

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  22. I think you underestimate the subtle influences that "culture" has on everything. We can see it in the Old Testament (see links).

    If you are referring to the Septuagint, yup. However "cultural" changes and doctrinal changes and Worldviws changing tom match Greek ones in another story. Again, you are not addressing my questions. Grant it...many Jews felt the tugging of Greco-Roman culture. How do you explain the lengths they went through to avoid it and mitigate it? And it would seem that they did the same thing with the scriptures. The apocryphal texts between Malachi and the New Testament were never part of Jewish canon. Why? They were too Greek and not Jewish enough. But they were used but not considered the same authority as the 39 books we call the Old Testament. Was Hellenization a factor? Yup. Was it a factor to the degree you are tying to make it? No.

    The bibliography on a paper I typed on a type writer in 1993. Like I've said, a fraction of all scholarship is on the internet. I'm sure you can find it based on my bibliography entry at a university. Is UCLA near by?

    Berkely is close by but you didn't give the whole Bibliographical Reference. Didn't you have to use APA format or something?

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  23. If you are referring to the Septuagint...

    I wasn't, obviously that's a big one, but ultimately is just a translation. See the links for the more subtle effects on Judaism.

    Didn't you have to use APA format or something?

    Apparently not.

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  24. Where is the full Bibliography entry?

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  25. I want the name of the Codex and what book was it that you read the contents of Pindar's fragment in. Please? When I was in college I had to make footnotes and endnotes and bibliography using popular academic formatting and standards like APA.

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  26. Remember when I told you I didn't have enough interest in this to go to the library. You can want in one hand and s#!t in the other and see which one fills up faster.

    Also, I personally know a very dumb person who has a BS and an MS from Berkeley. Just saying.

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  27. You said you wrote a paper. Didn't you document it? Maybe you weren't interested enough from the start. Very shoddy scholarship.

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  28. Did you go to the library and verify any of it when you wrote this "paper"?

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  29. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  30. Apparently "Proitos and Danae, Pindar ff" was adequate for Dr. Flick.

    PS: if I were you, I'd consider asking Berkeley for your money back on any English and Web Design classes you took.

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  31. I'd bet you didn't even find the reference. You never held it in your hands and chased it down. My professors would have dinged you for it. You would have never made it with laziness like that. You can't provide any proof that you are right or even prove such a reference exist. Pathetic.

    PS: if I were you, I'd consider asking Berkeley for your money back on any English and Web Design classes you took.

    Really, sad. You can't mount any serious defense of your position so you resort to ridicule and mockery as if your ignorance is my fault. Take a long look in the mirror.

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  32. I'd bet you didn't even find the reference.

    And you'd be wrong.

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  33. I'd bet you didn't even find the reference.

    And you'd be wrong.

    And my error would be easy to confirm if you could write a decent bibliography.

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  34. I got an 96 on the paper, and other fragments were referenced the same way, so I'm not sure what to tell you. Perhaps the Humanities follow a different standard, I don't recall.

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  35. APA is the standard Footnote, Endnote, and Bibliography format standard used in Psychology. There are many others. You know, listing the exact title, author, page numbers, publisher, and publisher's date is standard among them all...and really helps if you actually expect someone else to follow what you have done.

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  36. It's humorous to me that about 34 comments ago, I essentially agreed with you and conceded the point, but you still have an insatiable need to prove to yourself that you are right. You bring to my mind Proverbs 16:18.

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  37. The point that Perseus is not an archetype of Jesus or Christianity is not what we have been discussing. What we have been arguing is the drivel that you can't prove that Perseus had a resurrection and just how much was the influence of Greece was there on Judaism. All of which you failed to prove anything.

    You remind me of Psalms 14:1

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  38. Sounds like you are the one with the pride problem. It's not my fault that you can't form good argument, write decent bibliographies, and have to resort to name calling because that is all you have.

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