Marcus was kind enough to read and respond to my post on Ephesians 1. While his response covers a wide range of topics, D.V. I will restrict my response to the key topic: election in Christ.
Marcus: Did God predestine us or did he predestine the plan of salvation? God predestined us not a plan. Does a plan get adopted like children? Does a plan get seated in heaven?
This indirectly get’s at the key issue of understanding ‘in Christ’. The answer to your first question is both. God does choose us but He also chose and predestined to save through the Gospel. John 3:16, 1 Cor 1:21 especially in light of 1 Cor 2:7.
Let's take a closer look at the texts Dan cites:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. - John 3 16
"whoever" refers to a person who believes not the plan of how God offers salvation.
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. - 1 Cor 1:21
So the next question is naturally, is the Gospel the foundation of our election or is our election the foundation of the Gospel. In other words, does God first say ‘I want to glorify these people’ and then say ‘to do so I will use Christ, the cross and their union to Christ through faith’ or on the other hand does he first say ‘Christ is the foundation of Gospel through the cross and these people are united to Christ through faith’ and then say ‘I will glorify them and adopt them into my family’?
Biblically speaking, we cannot say that the goal of salvation is to glorify us. This is a problem. Our glorification is a byproduct of God glorifying Himself.
Me: The election is not of certain individuals whether or not they are united to Christ. It is all those and only those who are united to Christ. The election does not unite people to Christ. Rather it adopts them to God through their union to Christ. We are united to Christ by grace through faith.
Is there anyone who is united to Christ, yet is not elected to be adopted into the family of God? Vice versa? This is why Dan's argument confuses me because there is no one who is elected who is not united to Christ by faith. Scripture says that it is because we are elected we believe. There is no one who believes who is not elected and everyone who is elected believes.
Marcus: I agree election is not of certain individuals whether or not they are united to Christ. I have never heard or read James White, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, John Piper or any Calvinist say that it was.
Ah, but by implication, you say it when you say:
God has chosen to predestine some of us to unite with Christ and be reconciled to Himself.
I think that Dan and I are not meaning the same thing. What I think he means is that election is not depended on whether or not a person is united to Christ. This I agree with. It's not either/or. If a person is elect, he/she is united in Christ. The election comes first. It's all or nothing. You can't be elected and not be united with Christ.
If God first chooses us and then chooses to unite us to Christ, our election is not 'in Christ'. Again, if God chooses us before the foundation of the world and then in time uses Christ to fulfill that choice, we are not elected 'in Christ'. But if God views us as united to Christ through faith and then chooses to adopt and glorify us, then our election is in Christ.
Again, when God predestined the election, he has already chosen us to be adopted and glorified even if it had not been realized yet. IT seems that Dan is arguing that the election is non-temporal and before anything was created (very Biblically sound) but argues that the adoption and glorification doesn't happen until we accept Christ of our own will. And put that way I agree, partially. Because God exists outside of time, when he elected us our reunion with Christ was a done deal. Put a fork in me....I'm done.
Me: Also the election is in Christ, not unto union with Christ.
Again, how can you have one without the other?
Marcus: I don't believe the author has been able to prove that there is a difference between being elected in Christ and being elected into union with Christ.
The text says "in Christ", not "into union with Christ", nor are these two things gramatically equivalant. If I said I chose the chips in the cabinet for dinner, I am not saying I ate the chips in the cabinet.
Interesting analogy. By God's nature when He makes a decision reality automatically manifests itself into whatever He decided when He decided that it would. Nothing can or will change it. That is why He is God. As for us when we choose anything for dinner, that does not mean that is what you will be having for dinner. Anything could happen to stop it. While if you or I chose (exelexato - 1605 is the Strong # - selected out of several possibilities) chip for dinner, we may not eat chips for dinner. That is very different. God exelexato those who are to be saved out of all who will ever live (without rejecting those who were not saved) and did so perfectly. Our decision making is not so nearly precise or accurate. Please note that exelexato is used in Ephesians 1:4,5
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Thanks again for the response!
Thank you, also!
God be with you,
Dan
Arminian Chronicles: Response to Marcus on Ephesians 1
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Marcus,
ReplyDeleteWhile I can't speak for Dan, I will answer a couple of these objections from my POV, which I believe to be similar to Dan's.
Again, I see the verse saying that God saved those who believe - not a plan
I'm confused by this statement. Are you saying there was no plan of salvation, or are you saying we think election is a plan? Election is part of the plan of salvation, but election is in Christ. God elects a body of people, the church. Election is only individual when the individual is part of the elect body. The Bible never says we were elected to be in Christ. Scripture says we are elect in Him. God chose believers to save, He did not choose who would believe.
Is there anyone who is united to Christ, yet is not elected to be adopted into the family of God?
Of course not. To be united to Christ is to be in the body of the elect.
This is why Dan's argument confuses me because there is no one who is elected who is not united to Christ by faith
You're right. I think you've misread Dan. Has chosen to save those who believe, and in light of that choice, His elect are those who believe.
Scripture says that it is because we are elected we believe.
Where does it say that? You haven't backed this assertion with any scripture.
There is no one who believes who is not elected and everyone who is elected believes.
We are elect in light of faith (1 Corinthians 1:21, Ephesians 1:13-14). There are none who believe that are not elect, and there are none who are elect that have not believed.
You can't be elected and not be united with Christ.
If individuals were elected before they were even created, then were we united to Christ at that point in eternity past? Was there ever a time when we were under God's wrath? This statement would seem to speak against that.
Again, how can you have one without the other?
Because if election is as you explain it, then it is not in light of our union with Christ that we are elect, we are united with Christ because we are elect. Therefore, election is outside of Christ. It is at least logically prior to being united to Christ by faith. We only have faith (and subsequently are united to Christ) after we had been elected. Election, therefore, would not be in Christ, it would be unto Christ.
Hey, thanks for sharing your POV, Brennon. (Great blog by the way). I appreciate yours and Dan's comments because Iron does sharpen iron.
ReplyDeleteHow can God elect a body of people without electing the people in that body? I agree that God has chosen to save believers, but you have else where agreed that no one can be saved unless they are drawn by the Father (John 6:44)? The answer is right there no one believes unless they are drawn by the Father.
I think we can further say that God does appoint those who believe unto salvation (Acts 13:48). One cannot elect or appoint oneself but must be nominated and confirmed - which is what God does. We believe because He appointed us for salvation. One big thing about Ephesians 1 is that Paul makes the point that God's chosen was predestined. Dan's point was that election was a corporate one of anyone that believes, however Paul makes it personal. He says "us", "you" not some amorphous, faceless blob of humanity. I agree this election is not manifested until we submit to God, that does not mean that to God we are not his although we don't know it yet. Ephesians 1:4 makes it really clear for me that He picked us before he made anything - that is why you, me, and Dan believe the Gospel.
Hi Marcus,
ReplyDeleteAre you familer with the order of the decrees?
http://www.theopedia.com/Order_of_God's_decrees
Part of what I am trying to say is that in supra/infra lapsarianism, the atonement comes after election, but in Arminianism it comes before. Make sense?
God be with you,
Dan
Thanks, Dan, we have made some progress. In the classical Arminianism I am familiar with election does not come before atonement because the people become elect through choosing to believe the Gospel. I realize you don't see it that way. And I agree if I'm elect it is because God drew me. However Calvinism agrees with that statement. The issue becomes a question of what part in willing that regeneration comes. I don't see how atonement is a separate issue unless you think the atonement is universal -- oops. Classical Arminianism does hold thst the atonement is for all, right? If you hold that the atonement was only for the elect then only the elect is concerned. You don't have to figure out what came first out of election and atonement.
ReplyDeleteHi Marcus,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comments. I think I have said my piece for now. Careful though, I am like a bad penny, I keep showing up.
God be with you,
Dan
Please show up anytime and I'll be reading your blog. We agree on far more than what we disagree about, Brother.
ReplyDeleteHey Marcus,
ReplyDeleteTo answer the questions posed to me in your comment:
you have else where agreed that no one can be saved unless they are drawn by the Father (John 6:44)? The answer is right there no one believes unless they are drawn by the Father.
But not everyone that is drawn believes.
I think we can further say that God does appoint those who believe unto salvation (Acts 13:48).
Acts 13:48 is at the heart of much exegetical debate. Many argue that the passage in Greek is speaking in middle voice, which would cause the passage to read more like "to those who were disposed toward eternal life believed." They could have been prepared beforehand by their study of the OT or by being more sensitive to the calling of the Holy Spirit. But it is glaringly apparent that the passage does not say they were "fore-ordained" or "predestined to" eternal life. The word "tasso" is not once used in Scripture to express eternal predestination of any kind. I don't think you can take Acts 13:48 as even speaking on the doctrine of election unless you approach it with a presupposed interpretation.
I think he's talking about what was done in time at that moment. Those who were moved by the Holy Spirit and did not thrust it away from themselves as those in vs 46 had done (notice the parallelism between these verses), judging themselves unworthy of eternal life. In other words, they heard and the believing and appointment to eternal life were simultaneous. Also, notice what was said about the event afterward. "Now when they had come and gathered the church together, they reported all that God had done with them, and that He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles" (Acts 14:27). So, God opened the door to the Gentiles. That doesn't smack of an irresistible appointment at all.
One cannot elect or appoint oneself but must be nominated and confirmed - which is what God does.
I'm not prescribing that he or she does. I am saying God chose to elect a corporate body of people, those who believe. He elects you, but it is up to the individual to accept this election.
We believe because He appointed us for salvation
It's really straining to get this passage to say that.
One big thing about Ephesians 1 is that Paul makes the point that God's chosen was predestined.
We agree on that. What we disagree on is whether it is speaking of individuals or of a corporate group. Paul is speaking to a group and thinking of this predestination and election as in Christ. Those who would be in Christ by faith are predestined to adoption and to be the praise of His glory. It's not just individuals that accomplish this, it's the whole church.
however Paul makes it personal. He says "us", "you" not some amorphous, faceless blob of humanity
"Us" sounds more corporate than "you." God's elect aren't a faceless blob, they are His church, His chosen people. He chose to save those who believers as a group, but it is individuals who believe. It is individuals God draws and shows grace so that they would accept His gift of salvation. Saying this makes election impersonal is just flatly mistaken. I know you got it from James White, but it's just a straw-man.
Ephesians 1:4 makes it really clear for me that He picked us before he made anything
Not it says He chose us "in Christ." This is Paul's whole train of thought, that election is Christocentric. It does not say He chose us to be in Christ, it says He chose us in Christ. To be in Christ we must believe.
God bless. I hope I was clear.
The comments were so great, I thought a response deserved a separate post. Thanks, Brennon. http://mmcelhaney.blogspot.com/2010/01/response-to-brennon-regarding-to.html
ReplyDelete