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Saturday, July 31, 2010

Rebutting Debunking Christianity: TOP 16 WAYS TO GET A WOMAN/ WIFE ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE

John Loftus claims to understand the Bible and why it doesn't make sense. However, he endorses the following list as proof that the Bible is backwards and immoral and silly. But let's look at the list to see if this make sense.  My comments are in Red.The images on this posts illustrate how not to have maintain a  marriage.

This list was sent to me by Ed Babinski:

1) Find an attractive prisoner of war, bring her home, shave her head, trim her nails, and give her new clothes. Then she’s yours. (Deut. 21:11-13) [About the command that her nails be trimmed, you wouldn’t want her to scratch your eyes out, would you? "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and they Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou has taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldst have her to wife, Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare [trim] her nails." (Deut. 21:10,11,12)]

I think to a lot of people's minds it looks like the marriage was against the women's will. It is against our own modern sensibilities to treat women as spoils of war but it seems like certain facts are ignored. Typically when women were taken they were treated like slaves not as wives.These laws were giving prescriptions about how to treat women taken captive in war. You could not rape them, humiliate them, or mistreat them.

2) “Lay hold on” a virgin who is not betrothed to another man, and have sex with her, but afterwards pay her father a sum of money. Then she’s yours. (Deut. 22:28-29)

I'd like to know what translation this person is quoting because the NIV, KJV, and NASB do not state this as a command to tell people that this is a good idea or that we should do  this. It is saying that if you find this kind of situation, this is how you handle it. The man must marry her and treat her as a full wife.It was protection for a woman. If a man knew he would be forced to marry a woman if he raped her, pay the full dowry, and never divorce her should make a man think before he acts. You could not just rape a woman and get away with it. 

This is how the NIV translates the verse:

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver.  He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.


3) Find a prostitute and marry her. (Hosea 1:1-3)

So, is the insinuation that it's wrong to marry prostitutes? Do you remember why Hosea was told to marry Gomer?
  1 The word of the LORD that came to Hosea son of Beeri during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and during the reign of Jeroboam son of Jehoash king of Israel:
 2 When the LORD began to speak through Hosea, the LORD said to him, "Go, take to yourself an adulterous wife and children of unfaithfulness, because the land is guilty of the vilest adultery in departing from the LORD." 3 So he married Gomer daughter of Diblaim, and she conceived and bore him a son.
So the marriage, like all marriages, was intended to illustrate God's relationship with his people. Hosea's love and devotion to wife who cheated on him and rejected him. Likewise Israel, and many of us spurn God - selfishly serving other gods like ourselves and wallowing in sin. But like how Gomer repented and gave up being a hoe and began to love and respect her husband and Hosea took her back, we can stop being hoes and return to God and He will take us back.

4) Find a man with seven daughters, and impress him by watering his flock.--Moses (Ex. 2:16-21)

And what is wrong with that? Moses didn't just water Jethro's flock, he ran off some shepherd who tried to strong-arm the girls out of the right to use the well. I don't think Jethro was the only one who was impressed. There is no indication that Zipporah was force to marry Moses against her will. Please try harder.

5) Purchase a piece of property, and get a woman as part of the deal.--Boaz (Ruth 4:5-10)

The property was icing on the cake. Gravy. Boaz and Ruth wanted to get married. Boaz purchased the property to do things decently, lawfully, and in order of the Kinsman-redeemer laws. Look them up.

6) Go to a party and hide. When the women come out to dance, grab one and carry her off to be your wife.--Benjaminites (Judges 21:19-25)

Um, God did not tell them to do that. The passage tells no one to do that. This passage merely describe what happened not condoning what happened.  Read the text.

7) Have God create a wife for you while you sleep.Note: this will cost you a rib.--Adam (Gen. 2:19-24)

Your perfect soulmate! The one for you! And all it cost was a rib? You know Adam was praising God! I have a great wife and I think she is way worth more than rib. The Bible says:

22 He who finds a wife finds what is good
       and receives favor from the LORD. - Proverbs 18:22
This tells me if you are a man with a wife, God blessed you in special way. This is no different than it was with Adam.

8) Agree to work seven years in exchange for a woman’s hand in marriage. Get tricked into marrying the wrong woman. Then work another seven years for the woman you wanted to marry in the first place. That’s right. Fourteen years of toil for a wife.--Jacob (Gen. 29:15-30)

Jacob wanted to marry Rachel so much he was willing to work 14 years for her. If you read on further he grew to love Leah as well. I don't really see why this something to be derided or ashamed of. We should all love our wives as much as Jacob loved Rachel. Jacob being tricked was pay back for how he swindled his brother Esau out of his blessing through deceit. You don't get to do something wrong and get away with it.



9) Cut 200 foreskins off of your future father-in-law’s enemies and get his daughter for a wife.--David (1 Sam. 18:27)

Again, the Bible does not tell us that this is something that we should do. It describe what David did. In that day, one could ask just about anything for a dowry. 

10) Even if no one is out there, just wander around a bit and you’ll definitely find someone.--Cain (Gen. 4:16-17)

Was that supposed to be a Joke? We know that Cain married one of his sisters given that there weren't that many human being around. Just because we have details of Eve' conception of Cain and Able does not mean she didn't have daughter before or after them. We know it takes several generation for sibling couplings to become unnecessary when there isn't a large gene pool. I don't see why this is a problem. One would expect the same thing if you accept evolution - that is unless you don't want beneficial mutations to be carried over to the next generation.  Just saying.

11) Become the emperor of a huge nation and hold a beauty contest.--Xerxes or Ahasuerus (Esther 2:3-4)

Xerxes, first wife would not live up to her duties so he had to find someone else. I mean he already took out Leonidas and the 300, burned Athens to the ground. I'm sure needed something to do.  I don't see anything wrong with holding a contest to find the best woman for the job in the Persian Empire. The real miraculous thing is that it put Esther in a position to save her people. The event is still celebrated even today. If you think it's a horrible thing Xerxes did, sure would have liked to see you tell him that.

12) When you see someone you like, go home and tell your parents, “I have seen a woman; now get her for me.” If your parents question your decision, simply say, “Get her for me. She’s the one for me.”--Samson (Judges 14:1-3)

This happens today and has been happening for a long time. God did not tell Samson to do this, but God did use it to bring Samson into conflict with the Philistines. Israelites were not even supposed to marry into the foreign nations who worshiped false gods.

13) Kill any husband and take HIS wife. (Prepare to lose four sons though.)--David (2 Sam. 11)

Now that's simply dishonest. The Bible plainly condemns David's actions. David repented and paid dearly for his sins. Would anyone truly try to argue that God was pleased with David's actions? If you would then you are lying. 

14) Wait for your brother to die. Take his widow. (It’s not just a good idea, it’s the law!)--Onan and Boaz (Deut. or Lev., example in Ruth)

The idea was to take care of widows who had no other recourse in the society at the time. It was a world where a women (and children) could become destitute without a husband, father, or brothers to provide them. Also you didn't have to do it if you didn't want to marry her, although there was pressure from society, if you didn't want to. Again the law is being misrepresented.

15) Don’t be so picky. Make up for quality with quantity.--Solomon (1 Kings 11:1-3)

Solomon disobeyed God. Again the Bible is being misrepresented. 

16) A wife?--Paul (1st Corinthians, chapter 7, see below)

It is good for a man not to touch a woman … For I would that all men were even as I myself… I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I… But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn… I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be… Are you loosed from a wife? seek not a wife… The time is short: it remains that they that have wives be as though they had none… He that is unmarried cares for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married cares for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman cares for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married cares for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. And this I speak for your own profit… that you may attend upon the Lord without distraction. - 1 Corinthians 7:1,7,8-9,26-27,29,32-35

I think one should read 1 Corinthians 7 in its entirety to see what Paul actually wrote. And it's context. Paul is not against marriage. I find  it interesting that the line "Marriage is honorable" was left out..

All in all, I was supremely disappointed. Anyone who has ever read the scriptures for themselves should be able to see the spin that was put on the passages in this list. Referring to it as as "Poor exegesis" would be a complete misnomer.

Debunking Christianity: TOP 16 WAYS TO GET A WOMAN/ WIFE ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE
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29 comments:

Ryan Anderson said...

Chicken to post on John's page?

Marcus McElhaney said...

Nope, Just haven't gotten around to it yet. IT's too big to put in the comments

Ryan Anderson said...

Sure...

GearHedEd said...

Bible:

"When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and they Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou has taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldst have her to wife, Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare [trim] her nails." (Deut. 21:10,11,12)]

Marcus:

"Typically when women were taken they were treated like slaves not as wives."

didn't Deuteronomy JUST NOW SAY,

"...and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldst have her to wife..."

Also, the entire passage IS prescriptive (uses "shalt", or "shall"; = "must", i.e., is a COMMAND), like you said, but your objection doesn't address the fact that this is about "WIFE", not "SLAVE".

GearHedEd said...

Deut. 22: 28

"28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,..."

Nice qualification (...and they are discovered...). Says it's all right as long as you don't get caught. After all, who is going to believe the word of a WOMAN, anyway? That's WHY they needed to be caught in the act; because it would be her word against his, and the man would win in every case.

Marcus:

"You could not just rape a woman and get away with it."

Yes, you absolutely could get away with it, as long as you were not caught in the act.

Marcus McElhaney said...

@GearHeadEd

No, Deuteronomy did not say that it you should seek wives from prisoners of war. What it does say is that if you do take a wife from prisoners of war, how you should treat them and it wasn't like how other nations treat women as spoils of war. This command was in the context of a theocratic kingdom - Israel - not to people not living in that context. If you want to argue that it does apply today, please explain how it does.My point is that such a woman taken as a wife should be treated like a wife not a slave.

And no the law did not cover what happens if a man rapes a woman and no one in the community finds out about it. In that case the community was to do nothing...let God handle it who is more than able to avenge the woman. As for the context particularly being discussed it could be proven if a woman had lost her virginity. IT was also known to the community who was married and who wasn't and to whom. If an unmarried woman was shown no longer to be a virgin she could be stoned to death - and the man who did it with her. Therefore it was important to the girl's family to prove if she had been raped or not. It was not something as simple as her word against his. They took this very seriously. Much more than today. You given them too little credit. Rather arrogant.

Ryan Anderson said...

Marcus said "And no the law did not cover what happens if a man rapes a woman and no one in the community finds out about it. In that case the community was to do nothing...let God handle it who is more than able to avenge the woman."

But he said in previous thread "Even more we know that people commit crimes - kill and maim - and never go to jail, never legally prosecuted? How do their victims get justice? Does it even matter to you if they get justice or not?"

As I suspected, Marcus isn't intellectually honest enough to face his own conclusions and will argue ANY point so long as he's contra the atheist.

Marcus McElhaney said...

Hey, Ryan, let look at what "intellectual dishonesty" really is. You took two statements made by me out of their context and insinuated that they conflict with one another.That's also "putting words in my mouth" asserting that I'm making a conclusion that I'm not drawing. However, I will do better than you and explain where you "misunderstood".

Indeed when you said I said:
"And no the law did not cover what happens if a man rapes a woman and no one in the community finds out about it. In that case the community was to do nothing...let God handle it who is more than able to avenge the woman."

You were right. The context was in discussing those people who rape and are never caught. If they could not punish the perpetrator than it's up to God to provide justice. That was the point I was making.

How does this conflict with when I asked you "Even more we know that people commit crimes - kill and maim - and never go to jail, never legally prosecuted? How do their victims get justice? Does it even matter to you if they get justice or not?"? It doesn't. The point was making was that under your world view you have no justice to offer the rape victim whose rapist is never caught or punished in this life. You have no one whom the rapist is ultimately accountable too. Your worldview is weak and does not fit what we all know in our hearts must be true - that no evil will go unpaid for. The intellectually dishonest one who can't face the bankruptcy of his own worldview is you. Woe to anyone when it comes time to pay up, if you don't have Jesus. And it will come - ultimate justice and mercy. Which will you get?

Ryan Anderson said...

Marcus; I really think you confuse "atheist" with "anarchist". You really haven't a clue...

Marcus McElhaney said...

No, I didn't say you had no morality. Just no validation for why your morality is correct. You also don't seem to get that justice means you have to pay for the wrong you have done. according to God's standard - all evils will be dealt with - not just the ones you think are wrong.

You can claim that i am making mistak3esd all day but you have yet to show why I am wrong and your viewpoint is right. I'll wait.

Ryan Anderson said...

Keep waiting, you're the one with the positive claim.

So you have to actually show that "justice" is an actual thing, not just a concept, regardless how noble.

Ryan Anderson said...

...according to God's standard - all evils will be dealt with...

This why I say you are intellectually dishonest. You clearly acknowledge that all evil is not dealt with when it suits your position.

I'd like you to show (I said show, not quote the bible) that all evil, is actually dealt with in real life in an objective, testable and observable manner.

I'll wait.

Marcus McElhaney said...

I never claimed that all evil is dealt with in life on this side. I said that without God it will not all be dealt with. If there is no after-life then some people will get away with evil. In your system, people will get away with it. No punishment. No Justice. According to the Bible, God holds everyone into account. If you don't believe in "justice" then why isn't everything permissible. If all you think all things are permissible, then how can you not be an anarchist? I know most atheists don't ascribe to that, but how do you avoid it if there is no ultimate accountability? I never denied that evil is not dealt with this life. I affirm that God will ultimately deal with it - doing away with it forever. I'm being consistent. You are not.

Go ahead deny the existence of justice, just be prepared not to expect it the next time someone does you wrong.

Ryan Anderson said...

Accountability is at the societal level, this is no different than your "ultimate accountability" for practical purposes.

Also, I don't expect justice. It's sort of just a bonus provided by society if possible.

Marcus McElhaney said...

@Ryan

You said:

Accountability is at the societal level, this is no different than your "ultimate accountability" for practical purposes.


society is incapable of ultimate accountability because not everyone gets caught and pays for their crimes according to the laws of society.


Also, I don't expect justice. It's sort of just a bonus provided by society if possible.


Well according to you then some people kill, maim, still, persecute, oppress, and suppress others with impunity and they will never have to pay for what they have done.

Is that really the kind of world we live in? If you are right, then Hitler got away with all of it. And died on his own terms. Makes no sense to me.

Marcus McElhaney said...

@Ryan...You said that you don't expect justice...I'm amazed. How do you sleep at night? All of the evil and crap people have suffered through, there is no way it could be in vain and no justice for them. For the theist who trusts in God, there is no ultimate Problem because of evil and suffering because we have an answer. You have no answer...not one that I can see how you can live with. You dodge the question and offer no justice or comfort for the evils of this world. You described your de-conversion as a journey and you said you don't know what the destination is or where it will take you. I hope God will bring you to Himself.

Ryan Anderson said...

Marcus; ultimate doesn't mean perfect, it means last in a chain.

As for everything else Marcus, it's not "according to me", simply put it is what it is.

Do you consider commiting suicide in a bunker while soviet troops storm your capital city and losing control of everything you've work for "getting away with it"?

But, to head you off, I'm sure a murderer or two has died peacefully in their sleep. Again, it is what it is.

Of course I suspect that is the kind of world we live in. It matters not if it makes sense to you or me, it is what it is.

Ryan Anderson said...

Marcus; it seems unless I conceed and say exactly what you want I "dodge the question". Too funny.

Marcus said "All of the evil and crap people have suffered through, there is no way it could be in vain and no justice for them.

Of course it could be.

Marcus McElhaney said...

Ryan and if there was no justice where would that leave you? I said you dodge questions because you don't answer the questions posed. Instead you make no commitment but "play-it-safe" semantics. Please show some back bone and own up to the conclusion as to how bleak and pessimistic your view really is.

Ryan Anderson said...

Marcus; if there was no justice where would that leave you?

In the same place I am if there was?

I honestly have no idea what additional answer you require and I truly suspect that the only response you'll accept as an "answer" is a concession that you are right. Please be specific or maybe just more clear and I'll be happy to answer.

PS: my view is not bleak or pessimistic, but either way you need to do more than make assertions to show that it is...

Marcus McElhaney said...

Ryan, you have never experienced some one hurting you? Haven't you seen people suffer and been powerless to change things for them? If so, doesn't it bother you?

Let me state what I am getting from what you have said and if it is wrong then explain what you really mean:

The world is a place where terribly evil things happen to innocent people but since there is no ultimate accountability outside this life,if the perpetrators are not caught, tried, and convicted, then the victims will get no justice. Further, the perpetrators will go on live their lives and when they die there is nothing waiting for them or anyone else.

You have said your life value is 100% subjective and it seemed to me that you suggested that it's fine with you if the value of your life meant nothing to anyone else - meaning that they could kill you if you they wanted to and no justice should be expected.

The very fact that we both know what justice is remarkable. We both agree that justice is that innocent victims should be comforted and restitution made and evil people should be punished for their crimes. I have misspoke. You do see Justice that way right?

So in addition to just explaining how and if I have misunderstood you, I wanna know how such a view that people are going to get away with truly evil acts against you (and I know there has been ans there has been against me and people I know, not to mention my ancestors and yours and everyone else) is not pessimistic?

Ryan Anderson said...

Marcus; of course and of course it bothers me, because I’m human, but it is what it is and one can either whine about it, make up a fantasy to feel better about it or actually do something about (or just not let it bother you and move on, the best revenge!). I fail to see how any sort of supernatural, metaphysical, universal set of “rights”, “wrongs”, “shoulds” and “oughts” plays into that.

As for the rest, that’s a lot of words to put in ones mouth…

But, I agree with the first paragraph 99%, because of your use of the word “evil” which is a concept I don’t believe in, unless you define it like “something that is extremely harmful and done with intent”. I would simply say the world or universe is a brutal place.

As for the second paragraph, reminds me of something my grandpa used to say about wishing… “You can wish in one hand and s#!t in the other and see which one fills up first”. “Expect” and “wish” are essentially the same. I don’t expect justice will cosmically be served nor do I expect society to absolutely provide it (keep low expectations and you are often pleasantly surprised!), but I’m fortunate enough to live in the First World, so I actually have a reasonable expectation of justice. However, most of the world does not have that expectation. Humanity however strives for it because it’s been breed into us over the eons as social animals, it can be observed in Chimps and Baboons, amongst other animals.

I’m not sure we agree about what justice actually is. The simplest legal definition is to make someone whole. It has nothing to do with innocence, comfort or evil.

And it’s not pessimistic, it’s realistic, you admit that yourself with your comment in parenthesis.

Marcus McElhaney said...

I admitted that there is great evil and suffering...fine we agree on that. So how do we fix it? This is why I'm sure you did/do not have a relationship with God If you did, then you would know that you can count on him to set things right. You would know that He keeps his promises. You said you "expect justice" because you live in the "First World". I too live in the "First World" and my expectations and experiences are different - as well as that of my forebearers. I am a black man. The only justice I have ever gotten is from God not my nation. I would like to see you give an example of animals being observe providing one another justice in like a situations of stealing. That is a strong assumption...that "justice and mercy" have been bread in to us. how do you substantiate that?

It's not realistic to accept that anyone stronger or smarter or has money than me has a right to more resources and justice than I do. i know you didn't use those words. I am using them to describe the world your view results in.

How do you make some one whole without comforting them restitution of a harm done to them? Without eradication of evil (even as you have defined it) can you have justice?

Ryan Anderson said...

It's not realistic to accept that anyone stronger or smarter or has money than me has a right to more resources and justice than I do.

And yet that's the reality.

I'd be curious to here some examples of things god has "set right" for you or specific promises he's kept.

I would imagine these are things you accomplished yourself, but I'll keep an open mind as always.

Marcus McElhaney said...

That is how the world is but not how it should be. deep down everyone agrees that it is off - not right.

From ages 15-20 years-old i had juvenile rheumatoid Arthritis. I was in pain every waking moment. No medication would make it go away. No doctor (and I saw a lot of them) coiuld fix it or bring relief. Then God healed me. I didn't heal myself. I was not medical technology. God truly does heal today. He promised to make me more like Jesus and As I live and grow and study God puts love in my heart for people when I would have just written them off as stupid. I'm not the same person i was before I gve my life to Jesus. I'm much better and in ways i didn't even know I needed to improve. December 2007 I was in a bad car accident, my car almost skidded off a bridge into the bay.Instead my trailblazer bounced off the guard rail and I landed safely on the bridge. The car was totaled but I was okay. Did I do that? no. The other times that has happened to others the car went into the water and they drowned. It doesn't happen often but it's been known to happen. I was driving a 2005 Chevy Trailblazer at the time. I'm hear today because God allowed it. Everything good you get and experience is from God. You are just unable to see it. sometimes through some of your own efforts and sometimes apart from your own efforts and sometimes despite your own efforts. I thank God for even the times he told me "no" because it was in my best interest.

Ryan Anderson said...

Everyone? I don't agree it's off or not right. It is what it is

I have an atheist friend who rolled his jeep, with his seat belt off and survived with no permenant damage.

Physics determined where your car ended up. You got lucky. Revel in that.

Many children recover from JRA simply by growing and becoming stronger. God didn't do any of those things for you.

If everything good comes from god, you've now got a big problem with justice and the problem of evil.

Marcus McElhaney said...

No, I don't have a problem with evil because God will fix all of it. God is in complete control even when bad things happen. Evil is anything contrary to God's character and commands. He will put everything right - His way and in his time. Your friend who survived the car accident was because of God's mercy. He has mercy on atheists too. God loves atheists too. God blesses us despite us not because of us.

So you reject God but believe in luck? Isn't that inconsistent?

Ryan Anderson said...

I think we must define luck differently. You were very fortunate to have hit the wall at a certain speed and angle.

Edward T. Babinski said...

Marcus, Your responses amount to saying, "These were great laws for their day and age." So you have acknowledged ethical relativism, and that it can be found in the Bible.

Neither did you consider the woman's point of view. Forced to marry her rapist? Really?

Forced to marry the men who slaughtered her husband and/or whole family, village?

And in neither case is a wedding ceremony mentioned. It was an exchange of property.

And if the woman failed to please the soldier who slaughtered her people, she was let go. But if she did please him, only then was he obliged to take care of her.

And in fact a Hebrew male could have as many wives as he could feed and clothe. And also keep concubines and female slaves.

As for the Book of Esther, read chapter 2. "Beauty pageant" is a euphemism. The king was raping every virgin in that pageant, including the Jewish virgin, Esther. God was not incensed though. He allowed the raping, so that the king could discover just how "good" Esther was in the sack. . . for the good of her people. Esther was found to be so "good" that the king made her queen, and the Jews got to take revenge on their enemies, killing 75,000 of them according to the story, all because a virginal Jewish girl was raped by a king and was so good in bed. Is the story true? Who knows? God isn't even mentioned once in that book.

Ruth of course uncovers Boaz's feet, which is another euphemism for sleeping with him.

As for Paul, the most he said about marriage was that it was honorable, and it was "better to marry than to burn." "Better to marry than to burn?" They should SING that kind of praise of marriage at weddings. So all Paul admits is that marriage is "honorable" and "better than burning with lust" constantly. Not a word of actual praise.

All that Paul praises is the "spiritual marriage" of Christians to their bridegroom, the Lord. Therefore, Paul made clear that he thought celibacy was definitely a superior choice than marriage.

As for Cain marrying his sister, and in fact all of the children of Adam and Even marrying their brothers and sisters. Nice. More ethical relativism. I guess when they chose who was sleeping in whose beds while still kids, that was quite a serious choice indeed. But of course God being omnipotent could have created a second couple so such a thing need not have occurred. But I guess God just slapped his thigh and said, let 'em all sleep with each other!

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