Tuesday, September 23, 2008

Bible Basics Trinity - Part 2 Redux

I know. I know. Yes, the Trinity again. Remember I promised to interact with the website links that Ronald provided in his comments on my post called:

Bible Basics - Trinity - Part 2a Bible Foundations

I am amazed about the posts he cited. I will respond in the following order:
John 1:1,2 - The Word is Mighty found at:
The author of the article asserts that John 1:1,2 does not call Jesus God. The author says that Jesus is mighty. What? Let me quote some of his argument:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [TON THEON], and the Word was God [THEOS]. The same was in the beginning with God [TON THEON]. -- John 1:1,2, World English - transliterations from the Westcott & Hort Interlinear.
The author says that because "Ton Theon" is refering to God the Father and "THEOS" is refering to the Word - the LOGOS. These not the same words , that Jesus is being referred to as "God" in the way that human judges and leader were called "gods" in the Old Testament. The writer tries to dispel the orthodox interpretation of John 1:1-2 by stating that just because there is one God, does not mean that John is saying that either Jesus is the one true God or a false god. It is then asserted that the following verses from the Old Testament are examples were forms of "EL" and "ELOHIM" in Hebrew mean "strength, power, might, rulership, ect.": Genesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (mighty); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Psalm 82:1 (mighty); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding). Because "ELOHIM" is translated as "THEOI" the plural of "THEOS" in John 10:34 when Jesus quotes Psalm 82:6-7 and that ELOHIM sometimes means mighty in the Old Testament, the author concludes that John 1:1,2 should read "the Word was mighty".

Let us examine the argument further. The laundry list of scriptures used to show that variants of Hebrew words related to the Hebrew words for God being applied to men cannot be applied to the times Jesus is referred to as God, because no man other than Jesus has ever had the divine name applied to Himself of claimed for by Him. I have never found any case where the Divine name YHWH was applied to anyone but Jesus and God the Father in all of scripture.

Revelations 22:13 from the Son of Yahweh blog can be found at:
In order to get out of saying that Jesus is God and worshipped as God, the author argues that Revelations 22:7,12-15 is not Jesus talking but the angel that was talking to John. I would love to see what version of the Bible and what printing the author used. Every King James Version and any Bible that has Christ's words in red letters have these verses in red. Why? Traditionally this has been interpreted to be Jesus' words. The NIV reads very differently. I find nothing compelling to say that the angel was speaking and and quoting anyone else. The evidence points to that John was hearing Jesus with his own ears. Here is the NIV translation of Revelations 22:6-16:

The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place." "Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book."

I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"

Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

To be fair...how do we know that what I have said Jesus said was him and not the angel as the author asserts? Here is one reason: Why assume that the angel is quoting someone else. He nor any angel or man other than Jesus Christ is qualified to say most if not all of the verses I maintain is Jesus talking not the Angel. And second, no man has seen the Father at any time. This has to include John himself so it wasn't the Father talking to John. We know that Jesus is not included in the statement because the Bible says that Jesus has made the Father known to us and reveals the Father.
Here is another point: verse 16 said that He sent the angel to John. The angel told John in verse 6 that "The Lord" sent the angel. "The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets" is what the verse says. If they are both true. Then Jesus is "The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets".

The First and the Last by Ronald Day can be found at:
Ronald Day's post is to try to argue against paralleling Revelations 1:17,18 with Isaiah 44:6. The bulk of his argument seems to center on using the fact that Jesus died and then was resurrected means that He is not God because God is eternal, always existed, and will never ever cease to exist. Who said Jesus ever ceased to exist? John 1:1,2 says Jesus has always existed - pre-incarnation. John 1:14 says "The Word (LOGOS) became flesh" remember? No where does the Bible says Jesus came into or out of existence. We do not think of death as ceasing to exists when we think of each other from a Christian worldview, why would "death" mean ceasing to exist when we talk about Jesus' death on the cross. Instead of ceasing to exist, Jesus merely separated from His body and 3 days later Jesus was resurrected in the same kind of glorified body that He has promised to us on his return.

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