More Dialog on Mormonism Part 1 - Responses

I appreciate Ryan, aka Buyog, taking the time to read and answer my questions about Mormonism. He has shown himself to be real friend. And I appreciate that he has attempted to use scripture to base his responses. His answers are the most honest answers I have ever heard for these questions. He hasn't responded to my list in one setting. To be fair...it is lengthy. I have some follow up comments and questions on his part one. His comments are in green mine are in red. In black are the original questions and official answers given by the Mormon church. For more background check out the relevant links:
http://mmcelhaney.blogspot.com/2009/04/mormon-q.html
http://www.buyog.com/2009/05/lds-q-part-1.html

Q: Why do some call the Church a cult?

A: For the most part, this seems to stem from a lack of understanding about the Church and its core doctrines and beliefs. Under those circumstances it is too easy to label a religion or other organization that is not well-known with an inflammatory term like 'cult.' Famed scholar of religion Martin Marty has said a cult means a church you don't personally happen to like. We don't believe any organization should be subjected to a label that has come to be as pejorative as that one.

While I have to agree that no one wants to be labeled a "cult", the word does not historically mean "a religion that I don't like." It has been watered down culturally because no one cares about truth much anymore. I would define "cult" in this context:

a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.

Basically, leaving aside the question of if Mormomism matches this definition for minute I'm sure most people would agree that The "Charles Mansion Family", "Jim Jones' People Temple", and "David Koresh's Branch Davidians" all fit the definition I'm using. These were all false, living outside of conventional society under a charismatic leader. I'd rather not get into if Mormonism if false in the writing, but I'd like to use this definition to answer the question because the Church didn't answer the question in this article. I invite anyone to tell me where I can find a a better answer to this question.

This is being rather disingenuous, I think. First, I see the definition you site comes from dictionary.com, which contains several other definitions for the term, some of which apply equally to evangelical Christianity (e.g. "a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies."). The point isn't if we meet such a definition; I would argue that you and I both belong to cults in the "historical" meaning of the term, as you put it. Rather, the point is that the term itself has come to be used as a perjorative epithet, particularly since the definition you cite is a relative one, subject to the belief system of the person employing it (that is, what is "unorthodox" to you, may not be to someone else). The question was why some call us a cult, and the answer, I think, adequately addresses that.

Going a little further, perhaps a more complete answer would be that evangelical Christians believe us to be a cult because we have a different conception of who God the Father and Jesus Christ are, a conception that is outside the typical parameters of modern Christian sects, but is quite in harmony with what many primitive Christian churches believed (for a discussion of this, see chapter 3 of Barry Bickmore's book, Restoring the Ancient Church:

Joseph Smith and Early Christianity).

Disingenuous? I think that's misses my point. I agree that historically, that the term "cult" has changed and any one who belongs to any church would fit "a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies." I was merely suggesting that an agreement to what is meant by "cult" should be established. The thing is "unorthodox" is not relative. If we have an agreed upon characteristic of Christianity, the question that was asked was desiring to know if the LDS church is in line with those core characteristics. You admitted that the LDS church holds a different concept of who God the Father and who Jesus Christ are. The thing I'm not quite sure of is why you say that the LDS view is in harmony with what primitive Christian churches believed? Do you mean first century Christians: ie Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, Jude - the writers of the New Testament? I understand what you mean that this a major question and so I will be looking up the reference you mentioned because it is exactly what I have heard that Joseph Smith taught - that he was restoring Christianity.

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Q: Does the Mormon Church believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God?
Q: Does the Church believe in the divinity of Jesus?
Q: Does the Church believe that God is a physical being?

A: Mormons believe Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer, who died for the sins of humankind and rose from the dead on the third day with an immortal body. God, the Father, also has an immortal body.

The problem I have is with the words "literally" and "God, the Father, also has an immortal body." Does this mean that Mormons believe in Jesus' virgin birth, as Christians have preached for 2000 years? Or do they believe that Jesus was conceived in a sex-act between God, the Father, and Mary? If so, where do they have proof for that? Where is the proof that God, the Father, has an immortal body? Can you show that from the Bible? John 4 :24 says:

God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

Is Jesus God made flesh or not? Is it true that Mormons believe that Jesus is Lucifer's older spirit brother? If so where do find that in the Bible?

I've already answered the question about the physical nature of God and the divinity of Christ by pointing to Bickmore's book (the topic is much longer than I can tackle in this setting). Your question about Lucifer is interesting to me, because I never realized anyone had a problem with this doctrine... from my childhood I have always accepted the idea that we lived with God the Father before being born into mortality, but in researching mainstream Christian thought, I see that this belief (common among early Christians; see Bickmore's book again, the section titled "The Pre-Existence in Early Christianity") was abolished several centuries after Christ's ascension, and would therefore not be found among Protestant teachings.

Perhaps a simpler statement of LDS belief is this: if God created all things, then it follows that He also created Lucifer, yes? We believe that all spirits are creations (and therefore children) of our Heavenly Father:

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? (Hebrews 12:9)

In that sense, then, Lucifer and Jesus are siblings... just as Christ is our Elder Brother as well (He being the Firstborn). Notwithstanding this shared spiritual heritage, however, Lucifer elected to rebel against the Father, was cast out of Heaven, and became Satan:

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.(Revelation 12:7-12)

As to where in the Bible we find support for this doctrine of a pre-mortal existence, look no further than Jeremiah (I believe this scripture is commonly cited by those who oppose abortion):

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. (Jeremiah 1:5)

What is your understanding of this verse, if not that God knew us before our entrance into mortality?

I agree that Lucifer was indeed created by God. The thing is that I have heard that Mormons believe that these spirits were created through sex. Is this true? And the Bible does not teach that Jesus is a created being. Look at John 1:1-18

¹In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ²He was with God in the beginning.

³Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. ⁴In him was life, and that life was the light of men. ⁵The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood^a]">[a] it.

⁶There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. ⁷He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. ⁸He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. ⁹The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.^b]">[b]

¹⁰He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. ¹¹He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. ¹²Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— ¹³children born not of natural descent,^c]">[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

¹⁴The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,^d]">[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

¹⁵John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " ¹⁶From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. ¹⁷For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. ¹⁸No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,^e]">[e]^f]">[f]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

And Colossians 1:15-20

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. ¹⁶For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. ¹⁷He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. ¹⁸And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. ¹⁹For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, ²⁰and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Don't forget Phillippians 2:5-11

⁵Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
⁶Who, being in very nature^a]">[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
⁷but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature^b]">[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
⁸And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
⁹Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
¹⁰that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
¹¹and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

And there are many other scriptures I could site. However, If these scriptures are true, then Jesus is God and one of his creations cannot be his "spirit" brothers. You referenced one of the same scriptures I did calling Jesus "the Firstborn of creation" - that does not mean created first but that He is over everything and everything is subjected to him. As for Jeremiah 1:5, I don't see how we can say it's saying that we exist as spirits before we are born. I can find no scripture that points to that. We don't have to exist in order for God to know us. For if he has predetermined everything that does not mean that we would have had to exist before hand too.

For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. - Ephesians 2:10

²⁴"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. ²⁵And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. ²⁶From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. ²⁷God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. ²⁸'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

²⁹"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. ³⁰In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. ³¹For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."- Acts 17:24-31

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Q: Does the Mormon Church believe that God and Mary had physical sex to conceive Jesus?

A: The Church does not claim to know how Jesus was conceived but believes the Bible and Book of Mormon references to Jesus being born of the Virgin Mary.

Funny Apostle Bruce R. McConkie seemed to think he knew how Jesus was conceived. Does this mean that Mormons no longer believe this?

Just because Elder McConkie's book was titled "Mormon Doctrine" doesn't mean that everything he wrote is, in fact, revealed doctrine. We believe that man is flawed and fallible, and even when holding prophetic office is subject to error (see, for example, Jonah's refusal to understand God's plan for the people of Nineveh). I can tell you that we do not have a definitive answer as to how Christ was conceived, only speculation from McConkie and others, but ultimately it doesn't matter. The scriptural account tells us only that Mary was "overshadowed" by the Holy Ghost (see Luke 1:35), and that's enough -- as you said yourself, there are some things (such as the knowledge of how God enacted the virgin birth) that simply are not pertinent to our salvation.

Fair enough. McConkie and all Prophets and teachers who said that it was sexual are wrong. Right?

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I hope this helps clarify some things. I think it's important to state that all of this comes not of intellectual discourse or scholarly research, but from thoughtful, prayerful communication with the Lord through the Holy Spirit. My testimony of the Lord's reality and my understanding of these principles comes not from scientific proof (Douglas Adams once famously said that any such proof would cause God to vanish in a "puff of logic"), but from the revelation and confirming power of His Holy Spirit. I have felt it powerfully move my life in countless, undeniable ways. I know He lives.

Well, Ryan, I understand what you are saying and I am humbled and honored that you chose to spend some precious time to explain more about what you believe and why. You have used scripture and have been extremely honest. What I am wondering after reading your words is what do you think about the difference between reason and faith? I get the feeling that you look at them as separate. I have heard Mormons express much the same thoughts you have in your conclusion to part 1. I have to respectfully disagree. All religions make "truth" claims. They all can be wrong but they can't all be right. I believe that God is logical and reasonable...althought I don't always understand what He's doing. The Bible tells us that everything He does is good and works out for good (see Romans 8:28,29). Sometimes we disagree because we don't know what the "big picture" is. I too have seen the power of the Holy Spirit at work in my life so I know you are right...He is at work. He does indeed live! The thing is I keep in mind is that if I an idea or thought that I can prove is not true then I must let it go. One of the things I like about the Bible is that I can find no falsehood. No contradiction. Either I can confirm some of the things it says, or it is unconfirmable. True...faith comes in. But I think faith contradicting evidence is something to look closely into. The Bible even tells us to probe...to investigate...to search.

Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. - Acts 17:11

²⁰do not treat prophecies with contempt. ²¹Test everything. Hold on to the good. ²²Avoid every kind of evil. - 1 Thessalonians 5:20-22