I liked Dr. Geisler's answer. However I think that he could have spent more time on the point he raised about God's absolute justice. I don't want anyone to go hell, especially someone I've known, loved, and/or interacted with. IT really comes down to the following question for a believer: "How much do you really trust God?" Do you trust him to go as far as believe that He is doing everything for the best - that he never makes a mistake or misstep? If you believe that then you don't have to worry about your loved ones. All we have to do is obey God and witness to everyone who we come into contact with - and if necessary use words! I would feel far worse realizing that I could have told someone about Jesus and they ended up going to hell without hearing about Jesus from me.
Faithful Thinkers: Video: Loved Ones in Hell
If you believe that then you don't have to worry about your loved ones.
ReplyDeleteThis is not at all what was said, or it's the most watered down, pussified verision possibly.
What was said was 1) "once you get to heaven you'll understand why the people you loved are roasting for eternity and presumably you'll be ok with it" and 2) "well sucks for you".
Also, wouldn't you carry some guilt into heaven for not proselytizing effectively enough, especially to those you love the most? Or is it just "sucks for you" once you get there?
If that is what you got out of the video, it's no wonder I question your reasoning ability. If I understand why there are people who are in hell, then I wouldn't be worried about it. IT seems that you don't really understand what God has promised. You will see all of God's plan - His perfect mercy. And His prefect Justice. And it won't suck for you to be in heaven, but as for those who go to hell, everyone will know why they are there.
ReplyDeleteIf I understand why there are people who are in hell, then I wouldn't be worried about it.
ReplyDeleteOr rephrased "If I understand why [my mom/daughter/wife/sister/grandma is] in hell, then I wouldn't be worried about it."
For the record my grandparents, parents, siblings, wife, and many of my loved ones are born-again. We witness to those who are not - loved ones and strangers - trusting God's love and mercy and knowing that we will know that God is doing the right thing no matter what things look like now. We will understand and see that God is even more awesome than we think He is.
ReplyDeleteFor the record my grandparents, parents, siblings, wife, and many of my loved ones are born-again.
ReplyDeleteWell, you'd better hope so, especially since you've admitted you have no way of truly knowing if someone is born-again or not.
What I find interesting is you seem to endorse the idea of the two old 80's televangelists that even if your most beloved winds up roasted in hell and you in heaven, it would be ok because you'd understand why, but then you refuse to entertain the idea when made non-absract by inserting your loved ones in the roll of "generic hell-bound loved one".
Well, you'd better hope so, especially since you've admitted you have no way of truly knowing if someone is born-again or not.
ReplyDeleteI don't think you have been paying attention. You can know beyond any doubt if you are born-again and we know what a born-again person is supposed to be like. You can know for sure if others are not showing the signs of being born-again. But we don't know if God will not turn that around. I hope he does. Like in you case for instance. The people I mentioned are born-again because I know what god has done in their lives and I see what God is doing in their lives.
What I find interesting is you seem to endorse the idea of the two old 80's televangelists that even if your most beloved winds up roasted in hell and you in heaven, it would be ok because you'd understand why, but then you refuse to entertain the idea when made non-absract by inserting your loved ones in the roll of "generic hell-bound loved one".
I'm not denying the possibility of some of my loved ones going to hell. When did I say that? I have cousins, uncles, and friends - people who I care about - that i know are just as hell-bound as you because like you they don't love Jesus. I don't want them to go to hell so I witness to them and do my best to love them where they are and I truest God that He will take care of them. He is greater than me and you. And if He does not save them, God is still good. God is still merciful. God is still right. However, as for the family memebers I mentioned, they have done what you have not - submit to Jesus Christ. That is why I know they are not going to hell. You need to do something about your spiritual condition before your time runs out.
As for Geisler and Ankerburg, they know more than you do. They are scholars. If you don't want to listen to me, then at least listen to them.
You can know beyond any doubt if you are born-again and we know what a born-again person is supposed to be like.
ReplyDeleteMost people were sure I was...
I'm not denying the possibility of some of my loved ones going to hell. When did I say that? I have cousins, uncles, and friends
You missed the point entirely, I said most beloved. What if your daughter or wife becomes apostates after your death (you can't say it's not a possibility). Would you "understand"?
Can you be 100% assured of your own salvation? Isn't there an element of trust? Plus don't you read Piper? If you can't be assured of your own, how can you be assured of anyone else's...
Most people were sure I was...
ReplyDeleteNow everyone knows you weren't. See how God works? Does not mean He won't yet save you.
You missed the point entirely, I said most beloved. What if your daughter or wife becomes apostates after your death (you can't say it's not a possibility). Would you "understand"?
Yes, I will. It's not God's fault.
Can you be 100% assured of your own salvation? Isn't there an element of trust? Plus don't you read Piper? If you can't be assured of your own, how can you be assured of anyone else's...
According to the Bible you can be 100% certain of your own salvation. IF you think you were and come to find out that you wasn't just shows that God bring clarity and you have the option of getting it straight. God is the guarantee. That doesn't mean you can't be deceived as you were, but God allowed things to be made plain and get rid of the confusion.
Yes, I will.
ReplyDeleteGood for you for intellectual honesty, bad for you as a human being, sick sick sick.
You say you used to be a Christian, but you seem to not really know what heaven is and what it means. Does "dry every tear" mean anything to you? It's going to be an entirely different category of existence "not worthy of being compared to this one". Do I understand? Nope. But I will.
ReplyDeleteIt sickens me that people can devalue their familial relationships because of a belief in a post-morten disney. It's sad beyond words. Imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try, no hell below us, above us only sky, Imagine all the people, living for today...
ReplyDeleteWho says that there being a heaven and a hell devalues family relationships? If you are not valuing your family now, it's proof that most likely you are not going to heaven because you are not born-again. If you are living up to God's standard then you value your family. If you do not value your family, you are disobeying God and you are not right. It's necessary but not sufficient. And following God makes it so much easier. Hell is going to full of people who devalued the family and gifts God gave them. People who will go to heaven realized the value of their families through Christ. As nice as a person can be to their families without God, they can do better with God. Who doesn't want to do better?
ReplyDeleteRationalize it however you like. The bottom line is that you put something of your own above your wife and daughter.
ReplyDeleteBut I seriously doubt you actually do that in practice.
The bottom line is that you put something of your own above your wife and daughter.
ReplyDeleteHuh? Let's make sure I understand what you are saying:
How does my salvation have anything to do with anyone else no matter how much I love them? How does it improve things if I choose to go to hell with them if they reject Christ?
Also what do you care? If there is no heaven or hell, then no one is going to have loved ones in hell while they are in heaven. However since you are wrong, then what one would be forced to accept what the Bible says about heaven and hell if you believe what the Bible says about their existence. Therefore based on what the Bible says, it's not just rationalization about what I've already said on this thread. If you reject the Bible, you still don't have an objection to stand on because there is no hell for loved ones to go to. In short: You've added nothing to this discussion.
In other words, you'd put your own need (for salvation) above the needs of your family.
ReplyDeletePersonally, if all this bullshit was true, and for some weird scenario, my going to hell would ensure my wife and daughter's salvation, I'd pick hell in a heartbeat. I don't think you would (or I don't think you would admit that you would). Heck, I'd rather join the only people I love in hell then spend eternity without them. And Geisler misses the point entirely, if I was changed to the point that I was "ok" with my loved ones roasting while I was chilling with JC and the boyz, I wouldn't be me and that's not something I want.
But it's all moot, no heaven, no hell, no souls, not eternity. And don't worry, you'll be fine when you die, it'll be exactly like before you were born, but those you leave behind will still be here, so do what you can now, don't waste another moment preparing for your imagined post-mortem disney.
Also what do you care?
It's just funny to see how the inconsistencies play out in your rationalizations.
In other words, you'd put your own need (for salvation) above the needs of your family.
ReplyDeleteSilly. Really silly. How could I possibly put my need for salvation above that of my family? I can't take anyone else's place in heaven or hell? Neither can you? Are you listening to yourself?
Guess not.
Are you listening to yourself?
ReplyDeleteGuess not.
How could I possibly answer this question while you were posting it.