For this post let us deal with something fundamental: So Christians, the "Born again" kind, can commit murder?
Feel free to defend or attack the theology in the comments. Use science. Use the Bible. Use philosophy. Use History. Use whatever evidence you think is relevant to proving your point.
This question was posted by Ryan Anderson on a different post so he would not have to answer Why Hitler was wrong?
If one wants to know what Born-Again Christians do and don't do, you read the Bible to find out. What does it say? The entire epistle of 1st John deals with this but given Ryan Anderson wrote (here):
Yeah, you are going to have to be more specific (the verse in question) because I'm not reading the whole epistle and then trying to guess what you mean. It would be better indeed if you could show the capability of rational thought and state why in your own word.
By his own admission, he's not going to read the very thing that will answer his question - one of the shortest books in the Bible. But we'll help him out because we know that exegesis is not one of his strengths.
So how did John know who was a born-again Christian and who is not?
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. 11 For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another -1st John 3:9-11
14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. -1st John 3:14-16
There are so many scriptures that deal with this but we are going to focus on the above verses. First. we know that a born-again Christian will not purposely continue to sin on and on. This is evidence that he/she is not born-again. A born-again Christian does all he/she can to live according to the commands of God which are summed up by loving one another. Further because a murderer does not gain eternal life and hating your brother or sister is equated with murder, I think it's pretty safe to conclude that born-again Christians don't make a practice of murdering or hating others. We should follow Christ's example of love.
This does not mean that if you have ever hated anyone or even killed someone that you are lost forever. God can still redeem you. You can still repent and receive forgiveness. Don't forget that the Greek in these text carries with it the idea of habitually sinning not making a mistake - but outright will-full rebellion. So here's the next question. John is writing to a church - a body of people who claim to believe as he does: Does "brothers and sisters" refer to every human being or just to other Christians? Well given that no where in the Bible is it condoned to hate anyone or to murder anyone - I'd say that this isn't a license to hate or kill non-Christians.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. 1st John 1:8-10
So a born-again Christian would embrace this and accept this and some one who isn't would reject this. If you, Ryan, or anyone else wanna know what a born-again Christian is, you need to read 1st John and the rest of the Bible, then won't need to ask questions like this one.
So, Ryan Anderson, what about now? Are you ready to answer my question: Why was Hitler wrong? Feel free to answer here
Bring it.
OK, so you seem to be saying that a murderer can become a christian but can't be one at the time they commit murder. I'd say this still falls under the no true scotsman fallacy and doesn't square with what you typed earlier.
ReplyDeleteWhat you [sic] I should have written was:
Some Atheists commit mass murder just like some Muslim or Christians.
I'm not going to be able to answer your question until I get some consistency from you.
For this first post let us deal with something fundamental: So Christians, the "Born again" kind, can commit murder?
ReplyDeleteI don't think this is the first "bring it" post.
Dodge.
ReplyDeleteYou can't answer the question about Hitler. And again this goes back to what a "True" Christian. I wasn't saying that some born-again Christians commit mass murder. I was saying:
Some Atheists commit mass murder just like some Muslim and some Christians.
I was talking about people who claim to be Christians. You are the one who asked about Born-again - completely changing the context.
In all honesty, you should recognize that.
Look, you could be honest like Dawkins and admit you have no idea how answer why Hitler was wrong and I'd accept that. No one will think less of you than they already do. You sure have a lot of pride.
By the way, I made a type calling it this the first "Bring it" post. Thanks for pointing out the mistake.
ReplyDeleteToo bad you can't bring it. Hopefully someone else will take up your slack.
Dodge.
ReplyDeleteAnd ironically you also dodged my accusation of committing the No True Scotsman fallacy. But don't worry, I’ll get to Hitler (maybe*), but I need to nail you down on some items first, but damn you are slippery.
Now, before we get to Hitler, I need clarification on the following…
You today: "I was talking about people who claim to be Christians." [emphasis mine] October 17, 2011 11:29 AM
But previously...
You: And some Atheists commit mass murder just like some who claim to be Muslim or Christians. October 10, 2011 10:18 AM
Me: You could never allow yourself to just simply says "Atheists commit mass murder just like some Muslim or Christians." Thus, no true scotsman fallacy. October 12, 2011 3:44 AM
You: What you I should have written was: Some Atheists commit mass murder just like some Muslim or Christians. October 12, 2011 2:12 PM
So, as we can see, you specifically backed away from the words “claim to be” earlier, but reverted to it today. So which is it?
Now, with that said, it seems to me that your position is (as far as anyone can tell!!!) that “Born Again” Christians CAN and DO commit sins (you are on record on that one). But for some reason, they CANNOT commit a specific sin or sins, murder for example (you seem to be getting close to being on record for that one too, slippery devil). Now, I want to know more about this “demarcation of sin” and how you determine which sins are capable of being committed by humanity in general and which sins “Born Again” Christians are not capable of ever committing?
*But I do have a caveat, I will not be answering the Hitler question if it is in fact your position that “Born Again” Christians CAN and DO sin, but cannot commit one set of arbitrarily determined sins while being able to commit another set of arbitrarily determined sins (all sin being equal before god after all), because no possible answer anyone can give will ever satisfy your fevered mind.
*But I do have a caveat, I will not be answering the Hitler question if it is in fact your position that “Born Again” Christians CAN and DO sin, but cannot commit one set of arbitrarily determined sins while being able to commit another set of arbitrarily determined sins (all sin being equal before god after all), because no possible answer anyone can give will ever satisfy your fevered mind.
ReplyDeleteYou are so...confused. I have never backed away from Christians can and do sin. The issue is that the Bible tells us you can't be be born-again and keep on sinning. There is forgiveness for you if you turn from your sin. All sin is indeed the same in God's eyes. You really expect me to swallow that you thought I was talking about born-again Christians on 10/12? And then you ask about Born-Again Christians, which I was not discussing. You really want to conflate the two contexts to manufacture a contradiction? Yup. Just like you read the Bible: Pathetically.
Truth is it doesn't matter what you think. I gave you the appropriate scriptures to answer your question. There's no fallacy there except your reasoning powers. You continually knowing at that bone - that "no-true-scotman" fallacy although it has been pointed out to you multiple times that it doesn't apply because there are concrete, definitional characteristics of born-again Christianity and you refuse to see it because you like to console yourself with the fantasy that you used to be a born-again Christian and you found it wanting. Denial is not a pretty thing.
You won't answer the question about Hitler because you are less honest than Richard Dawkins and too prideful to admit that you can't answer it, but I can answer yours. Now that's sad.
I have never backed away from Christians can and do sin.
ReplyDeleteNever said you did, I actually said you are on record stating this. What you did do, briefly between October 12th and Today is back away from the notion that only those who "claim to be" christian can murder. See above. I'd love to see a detailed explanation of what sins a "born again" christian can commit and which they are incapable of.
I was talking about born-again Christians on 10/12? And then you ask about Born-Again Christians
So now there are three catagories of christians? Those "claiming to be christians", "christians" and "born again christians"? I'd love to hear more about this elusive class of christians who are not just claiming to be christian but are not born again...
I gave you the appropriate scriptures to answer your question.
Hahaha, your scriptures are irrelevant to me, I want you to commit to an answer, by stating it in your own words, however.
You won't answer the question about Hitler because you are less honest than Richard Dawkins and too prideful to admit that you can't answer it
I'm very honest, to a fault, but of course I am a bit prideful (not a bad thing), and I can answer the question to a level of satisfaction a non-addled brained human would accept (who knows what your scattered brain requires however), but I need you to commit (and express in your own words) to some foundational issues regarding morality first before I do so (or even decide if I'm going to do so).
There are only two types of "Christians" in today's world: People who are claiming to be and only are going through the motions and born-again Christians. There are no sins that are only for one class of people.
ReplyDeleteHahaha, your scriptures are irrelevant to me, I want you to commit to an answer, by stating it in your own words, however.
So you admit your inability to understand English. It's obvious, but never thought you would admit to it. The Bible should be the basis of any conversation about what a Christian is. This is why you are confused.
I'm very honest, to a fault,
No evidence so far.
but of course I am a bit prideful (not a bad thing),
Pride goeth before a fall. (oh yeah, that's in the Bible, won't mean anything to you). And you just falling all over the place
and I can answer the question to a level of satisfaction a non-addled brained human would accept (who knows what your scattered brain requires however),
So far you have offered nothing of any substance.
but I need you to commit (and express in your own words) to some foundational issues regarding morality first before I do so (or even decide if I'm going to do so).
You haven't stated what those "issues" are. You won't even stick to a single Biblical definition of what "Christian" means. You want to meander all over and dodge the point.
So let's nail this down. You want to argue that any Christian (born-again) or not is capable of any sin like murder? Name one born-again Christian who committed murder after his/her conversion.
Okay, now based on 1st John 3:14-16, is your question answered?
Yes, it is.
There are only two types of "Christians" in today's world: People who are claiming to be and only are going through the motions and born-again Christians. There are no sins that are only for one class of people.
ReplyDeleteOK, so which of your statements do you consider correct? The one that included the words “claim to be” or the one you corrected so it wouldn’t included those words? Also, if a born again Christian can and does commit sins, and there are no sins that are only for one class of people, then is it fair to say “born again” Christians can, theoretically, commit murder?
You want to argue that any Christian (born-again) or not is capable of any sin like murder?
Um, no, well, I’m not sure, I think you might have wanted to put “or not” within the parentheses? Can you at least commit to this clearly written statement “Any Christian (born-again or not) is capable of committing any sin, including murder”. If not, why?
Also, you realize 1st John 3:15 doesn’t exclude murderers, but excludes people who hate, given that I can imagine a number of scenarios where a murder could be committed without hate, I’d say this doesn’t really answer anything. Note: you’ve got some hate in you. Just FYI.
The one that included the words “claim to be” or the one you corrected so it wouldn’t included those words? Also, if a born again Christian can and does commit sins, and there are no sins that are only for one class of people, then is it fair to say “born again” Christians can, theoretically, commit murder?
ReplyDeleteYour problem is that you think there is a contradiction and there isn't.
Um, no, well, I’m not sure, I think you might have wanted to put “or not” within the parentheses? Can you at least commit to this clearly written statement “Any Christian (born-again or not) is capable of committing any sin, including murder”. If not, why?
You are so confused that you need to recontextualize the question. That is poorly worded. It should be:
“Any human being is capable of committing any sin, including murder”.
Now that point is established what is different about the Born-Again Christian? According to the Bible one who born-again does not do what I actually said in the comment you are hung up on: mass murder. Not killing is murder. If you murder someone - it purposely killing someone for personal gain - planning it and meditating on it. War is not murder. Capital punishment is not murder. Self-Defense is not murder If a person born-again person murders another and is not sorrowful and is not repentant it's proof that he/she isn't born-again.
Also, you realize 1st John 3:15 doesn’t exclude murderers, but excludes people who hate, given that I can imagine a number of scenarios where a murder could be committed without hate, I’d say this doesn’t really answer anything. Note: you’ve got some hate in you. Just FYI.
Again you prove the uncanny ability to misread scripture. The Never fails. Do you have problems reading everything or just the Bible? The passage equates hatred with murder! It doesn't need to say that murderers can't be Christians because there is a clear commandment against murder. The passage is explaining just how high the bar really is.
One last thing: Just who do you think I hate? [This will be funny]
If a person born-again person murders another and is not sorrowful and is not repentant it's proof that he/she isn't born-again.
ReplyDeleteNo True Scotsman. Done.
According to the Bible that is what a Christian is. Deal with it. And while you are at it answer: WHY WAS HITLER WRONG?!
ReplyDelete*But I do have a caveat, I will not be answering the Hitler question if it is in fact your position that “Born Again” Christians CAN and DO sin, but cannot commit one set of arbitrarily determined sins while being able to commit another set of arbitrarily determined sins (all sin being equal before god after all), because no possible answer anyone can give will ever satisfy your fevered mind.
ReplyDeleteThis brief comment is worth digging into...
ReplyDeleteWar is not murder
But killing during a war could still be murder, correct? My Lai for example. Also, what if one side doesn't consider it a war, but the other does? Do suicide bombers commit a lesser or greater form of murder than a when the bomber/navigator of a B2 presses a button? Drone strike that hits a US citizen accused of terrorism but has not been convited? Is the person that controls the drone guilty of murder, the person who gives the order to use the drone to attack? Heroshima? Was Gaddafi murdered?
It's never as simple as you think.
War is not murder
Sure... never...
But killing during a war could still be murder, correct? My Lai for example. Also, what if one side doesn't consider it a war, but the other does? Do suicide bombers commit a lesser or greater form of murder than a when the bomber/navigator of a B2 presses a button? Drone strike that hits a US citizen accused of terrorism but has not been convicted? Is the person that controls the drone guilty of murder, the person who gives the order to use the drone to attack? Heroshima [sp]? Was Gaddafi murdered?
ReplyDeleteIt's never as simple as you think.
Ryan, this is why defining terms is important. You asked: "But killing during a war could still be murder, correct?" Again you are changing the context of what I was talking about.
Do you believe that War is ever justified? Yes, suicide bombers obviously don't think that when they kill people that they aren't justified. You ask a lot of questions that point to the morality of war. Since you are incapable...er...refuse to answer why Hitler was wrong how about answering your own questions here:
1. Was My Lai an example of evil? 2. what if one side doesn't consider it a war, but the other does?
3. Do suicide bombers commit a lesser or greater form of murder than a when the bomber/navigator of a B2 presses a button?
4. Drone strike that hits a US citizen accused of terrorism but has not been convicted?
5. Is the person that controls the drone guilty of murder, the person who gives the order to use the drone to attack?
6. Hiroshima?
7. Was Gaddafi murdered?
War is not murder but sometimes murders are committed during wars.
Do you believe that War is ever justified?
ReplyDeleteI believe every war has been justified (by someone).
and I asked first, 1 through 7, go!
No, I asked your first. Why was Hitler wrong? You answer that and you get your seven. And then you can can answer those seven.
ReplyDelete