My Common Sense is Tingling: Debunking Christianity: Why the Q Hypothesis Works

Tommy G. Baker has posted another article attempting to discredit the Bible. He fails. But let's see how he fails. I find that his methods better than John Loftus;, however so I guess that's worth a little something. My comments are in red. 

Mark 1: 21-39 presents Jesus going to Simon Peter's house and curing Peter's mother-in-law. She has a fever which Jesus "cures'. She then gets up and serves them. That evening people brought the demon possessed and sick to the house. The whole city gathers about the door.

Notice how Baker just summarizes the text instead of quoting it. It's not that he doesn't get it right but it is interesting.


Jesus heals many of the cases and told them to keep quite. And the following morning before daylight he went out to a private place and prayed. he is interrupted by Peter and the rest telling him that the crowds were looking for him. He gets the new followers to go the the next towns in Galilee preaching and exorcizing demons.

Until we get to here

³² That evening after sunset, the people brought to Jesus all who were sick. They also brought all who were controlled by demons. ³³ All the people in town gathered at the door. ³⁴ Jesus healed many of them. They had all kinds of sicknesses. He also drove out many demons. But he would not let the demons speak, because they knew who he was. - Mark 1:32-34

Notice how Baker seems to say that that Jesus only heals some of the people who are there as if there were some people who were sick that Jesus did not heal. This isn't what the text says. It says that Jesus healed some of the people who were there because obviously not every single person there was sick. Second the text does not tell us that he told all the people he healed to be quite but Jesus told the demons He cast out to be quiet.  I wonder why was Baker saying the Bible says things it does not say.

When we look at Matthew and Luke the story changes. Matthew 8:14 -27 has been rewritten by its author:

Let's see if he can prove that.

1) Matthew as throughout the Gospel intensifies the situation to make it ore outstanding. Here instead of Jesus curing many of those brought. Matthew now says he cures all of who was brought to him.

Guess not

¹⁶ When evening came, many people controlled by demons were brought to Jesus. He drove out the spirits with a word. He healed all who were sick. Matthew 8:16

This isn't a conflict with Mark at all. They are both saying that Jesus healed all those who are sick.

2) Matthew adds an Old Testament quote to claim that the event was a fulfilment of prophecy, " He took away our infirmities and bore our diseases (Isaiah 53:4)." The Jewish interpretation is that this applies to the whole of Israel. Here we see it taken to create the Suffering Servant as a prophecy of the messiah (Origen, Contra Celsus).

And how is adding the detail that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament a problem? I agree with Baker that Matthew was written to Jews. It's written in such a way that Jewish sensibilities are brought out.  Explaining that Jesus fulfilled the New Testament would be very important to Jewish leaders. It would not have been as important to Romans (Mark) or Greeks (Luke).

3) Here the events will change dramatically. Instead of Jesus going to bed and getting up early in the morning to pray he commands his new followers to get a boat to cross the lake. This is a fabrication by Matthew. It acts as a "seam" to stitch a passage from Q into his reworking of the text of Mark.

Why does it have to be a fabrication? Baker admits that he doesn't know who wrote Matthew. For all we know it could be the man whom tradition says it was who wrote it. And in that case there is no reason to think that Matthew just gives more information than Mark does in this instance.  There is no need to complicate matters introducing a third source that no one can prove ever existed.

Matthew 8:

9 Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.”
20 Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”
21 Another disciple said to him, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”
22 But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.

This is followed by the next seam in which Jesus gets into the boat and Jesus calms the storm. With this addition we see that Jesus no longer sleeps or prays early the next day. This addition of the "Would-be Follower" changes the original story of Mark. This is at the beginning of the ministry of Jesus according to Matthew.

Again Baker assumes that Matthew changes a story and can't prove any such thing happened. He merely asserts it.

When we compare the section in Luke 4:38-41 we see Luke also intensifies the event:

1) all of the people are cured by laying on of hands. The demons coming out testify that Jesus "is the Son of God." He rebukes the demons to be silent rather than the people as in Mark.

No, in Mark the demons are rebuked not the people,.  What translation is Baker reading?

2) As in Mark Jesus come the next morning goes out to a private place to pray.

Still doesn't contradict Matthew. One Gospel has a detail the other two do not have. That's not a conflict. That is what one would expect if they were based on eyewitness testimony. 

3) But Luke 9:57-62 still has the Would-be Followers passage. He uses it from Q at the end of the ministry of Jesus. The event is made to occur while going through Samaria on the way to Jerusalem where he will die.

Wow! This time Baker asserts much without any proof whatsoever. If Luke copied from Mark and didn't have access to "Q" then how could he have taken material from Q if it's not part of Mark? I find it humorous. The "Q" hypothesis is not really one hypothesis but comes in multiple flavors. And there are versions where Matthew and Luke did not have access to "Q" and Mark and  where Matthew and Luke only had Mark. They all can't be true. And again a  hypothesis is only a guess not fact. And here I don't even think "hypothesis" is a good description. "Pipe Dream" seems more fitting.

As an atheistic Bible study we can show to Christians that their scripture is not inerrant since the events are changed by the editing of Mark by Matthew and Luke. We can show that a sayings source that had no contextual setting was given context by inserting its collection of Jesus sayings into Mark. Mark thus becomes a convenient context.

If Baker means atheistic Bible study is a good example of eisogesis and how one should not read anything, then  I agree that the approach is useful. 

This also demonstrates that there is nothing historical in these presentations. This approach throughout the Synoptic Gospels shows an early Mark that has an all too human Jesus who does not know who touches his robe, who gets angry with people and insults several who seek his help. He has a human temper.

Baker is pontificating. He proved no such thing. I find nothing but fantasy in his presentation and no fact. Who said Jesus was not fully human? The orthodox Christian viewpoint is that Jesus is fully human and fully God. Why wouldn't he get angry? God got angry in the Old Testament a lot. When the woman with the issue of Blood touched Him, Jesus did not know who it was for the same reason He didn't know the day or the hour of his second coming: He voluntarily limited Himself in His humanity, but that doesn't mean He ceased being God at any time. And no I would not classify Jesus' temper as human as like us. If He were He would have wiped out everyone who had a hand in his crucifixion and kangaroo trial 

Matthew removes all of this. Jesus becomes a heavenly emissary with perfect knowledge and super human powers. Luke shows him to be a divine agent similar to Matthew's restructuring. We can see the progress in a temporal manner from Q an early sayings source of a human Jewish teacher to Mark as a man adopted by God in a Gentile view. Jesus is seen as an Enochican heavenly messenger in Matthew. And finally he becomes a Gentile demi-god in Luke. John will make him a pre-existent property of God, Logos, His Wisdom and Reason.

No, Matthew gives other details that shows how  Jesus was/is the king Israel has  been waiting for. How can you see any progression from "Q" given that we don't know what was all in "Q"? Mark's goal in writing His Gospel was very different from Matthew, Luke, and John. The audience is different. Of course the details included would be different. This does not mean that there is conflict. If I tell you Sue went to the store and then I told someone else that Sue and Jane went to the store, is this a conflict? Did I lie? No, I did not. This is the nature of the differences between the Gospels.

Q becomes the only source of primary attention for a historical Jesus. It shows a human being who is not a sacrifice for salvation as in the later Gospels. It is his teachings that are the source of salvation for the original hearers who were Jewish Palestinans.

Correction "Q" could be a source of primary attention for a historical Jesus if we knew what was in "Q"  and we don't even know if such a document really existed outside of the minds of the men who dreamed it up. 

Written by Tommy G. Baker

So was Baker able to show why the Q hypothesis works and why we should accept it in understanding who Jesus is from a historical standpoint? Nope, not even close. At least Baker is trying to support his atheism by attacking the Bible instead of hiding behind a stupid charge of circular reasoning.- claiming that you can't use the Bible to prove the Bible. He seems convinced that the Bible discredits itself. Hopefully as he keeps studying the scriptures, God will open his mind and he will truly see them.

Debunking Christianity: Why the Q Hypothesis Works

FacePalm of the Day #105 - Debunking Christianity: Who Answers Prayers?

I think that when atheists make the following arguments they miss a couple of major points. Here are statements articulated by John Loftus.

Christians claim that any prayer request granted for other believers in different religions is done by their God out of compassion, because only one God exists, theirs. The reason Christians think this, despite the fact that only prayers offered in Jesus' name are to be prayed, is because their own answered prayers have no more evidence for them as the others. So their God becomes the explanation for the answered prayers of a Muslim, or an Orthodox Jew, or a Fred Phelps, or a Roman Catholic, or a liberal Christian, or a Jehovah's Witness, or a Mormon, or a Satanist, or a Hindu. But believers in these other religions will take answered prayers as evidence that their faith is true. This means God, the Christian God, is providing confirming evidence against the truth of Christianity to other believers in false religions who will be condemned to hell. So Christian, either give up the belief that your God answers the prayers of other believers, or admit he is helping to send them to hell. And if you give up the belief that God is answering the prayers of other believers, then show us why your own answered prayers have more evidence for them than theirs.

What is missed is that it's assumed that if someone prays a prayer that unless they get what they asked for that God didn't answer their prayer. "NO" is no less an answer than "YES". The other thing that is missing is the realization if someone prays and they get what they wanted that doesn't mean that our God answered it. According to Christianity, people could be praying to and communicating with demons. If you accept what the Bible says about God and angels then you must also accept the existence of demons. We also know that God will allow demons to do things.

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. - Timothy 4:1

and

⁵ Then the devil took Jesus to the holy city. He had him stand on the highest point of the temple. ⁶ "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. It is written,
" 'The Lord will command his angels to take good care of you.
They will lift you up in their hands.
Then you won't trip over a stone.' " —(Psalm 91:11,12)
⁷ Jesus answered him, "It is also written, 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "—(Deuteronomy 6:16)
⁸ Finally, the devil took Jesus to a very high mountain. He showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. ⁹ "If you bow down and worship me," he said, "I will give you all of this."
¹⁰ Jesus said to him, "Get away from me, Satan! It is written, 'Worship the Lord your God. He is the only one you should serve.' "—(Deuteronomy 6:13)
¹¹ Then the devil left Jesus. Angels came and took care of him. - Matthew 4:5-11

Debunking Christianity: Who Answers Prayers?

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Habitable zone - Controversy

You may or may not be aware of a discussion with an atheist named Ryan Anderson regarding the fact that he believes that Dr Hugh Ross is wrong when he wrote:

"If the Earth were one half of one percent closer to the sun, water on Earth would boil off. If the Earth were one half of one percent farther from the sun, all the water would freeze." (More Than A Theory)

However the statement does not exist in More Than A Theory. He attributes the quote to have been made on then John Ankerberg show, but I wonder if he saw it because the following book references the same thing:
Atheist Universe: The Thinking Person's Answer to Christian Fundamentalism By David Mills on page 250. You can read the exchange om my post: Faithful Thinkers: Audio: Major Creation/Evolution Models

Unfortunately, Anderson took things way to far alleging that Ross is dishonest and worst or doesn't know what he is talking about at best (about the Habitable zone and Creation/Evolution models). Anderson commented the following:

Also, it should be noted that as far as I know, Hugh Ross has never backed away from his absurd claim that "If the earth were 0.5% closer to the sun it would broil and if it was 0.5% farther from the sun it would freeze." [paraphrase]. The only reason I can think of for someone with a "PhD" to make such a clearly demonstratably false claim is to mislead. But that's par for the course with creationist, regardless of their "camp".

And today he said:

Actually, if you make an assertion that's wildly outside the range of what is currently thought to be the case, you have an obligation to substantiate that assertion.

He's [Dr Hugh Ross] actually a good example of why, as a layman, one should look for consensus among scientist rather than looking at one scientist. There are bad ones in every profession. But you of course will only look at the scientist that support the positions you want to believe.

Yes, indeed it is important to look at the balance of consensus among experts to determine if something is true or not. However we know that consensus does not always equal truth. There was once a consensus that the Earth was flat. And another that the whole universe revolved around the Earth. But the value of consensus is not issue now. Let's see if with simple back of the envelope calculation if we can figure out if  Dr Ross is wrong in the numbers he is proposing. First the Habitable zone is the range of distance from sun in which the earth retains liquid water. Any closer the water boils and evaporates. Farther and the water freezes.  The distance of the Earth to the Sun is called an Astronomical Unit (AU) which is about 93 x 10⁶ (93 million) miles. For the sake of this calculation I am approximating the earth's orbit as a circle although it is elliptical. I am also taking the range of the Habitable Zone from the following Wikipedia page:

Habitable zone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

INNER edge	OUTER edge	References	Notes
0.725 AU	1.24 AU	Dole 1964 [18]	Used optically thin atmospheres and fixed albedos.
0.95 AU	1.01 AU	Hart et al. 1978, 1979 [19]	stars K0 or later cannot have HZs
0.95 AU	3.0 AU	Fogg 1992 [20]	Used Carbon cycles.
0.95 AU	1.37 AU	Kasting et al. 1993 [21]
–	1%–2% farther out	Budyko 1969 [22]	... and Earth would have global glaciation.
–	1%–2% farther out	Sellers 1969 [23]	... and Earth would have global glaciation.
–	1%–2% farther out	North 1975 [24]	... and Earth would have global glaciation.
4%–7% closer	–	Rasool & DeBurgh 1970 [25]	... and oceans would never have condensed.
–	–	Schneider and Thompson 1980 [26]	disagreed with Hart.
–	–	Kasting 1991 [27]
–	–	Kasting 1988 [28]	Water clouds can shrink HZ as they counter GHG effect with higher albedos.
–	–	Ramanathan and Collins 1991 [29]	GHG effect IR trapping is greater than water cloud albedo cooling, and Venus would have to have started "Dry."
–	–	Lovelock 1991 [30]
–	–	Whitemire et al. 1991 [31]

Let's take the Hart et al. 1978, 1979 reference of 0.95 AU  to 1.01 AU  for the range of the Habitable Zone. Imagine 3 concentric circles. Then inner one has a Radius of 0.95 AU, the middle has a radius of  1 AU and the outer has a radius of  1.01AU.


So what is the distance from the earth's orbit to the inner boundary of the habitable zone?

1 - 0.95 =  0.05  meaning 0.05 AU

What about from the earth to the outer boundary of the habitable zone?

1.01 - 1 = 0.01 - meaning 0.01 AU

If you want to know percentages of AU you take the differences and divide them by AU. This gives  - 0.05 and  + 0.01 .

This is well within the consensus of 0.725 AU to 3 AU. We know that any number anyone grabs from the air is an estimate and an approximation - averages. Not wrong, but nothing to assassinate a man's character over. It is obvious that Dr Ross is using Habitable Zone ranges like 0.99 AU and 1.01 AU.Again: well within the consensus range. Ryan Anderson claims to be a layman yet feels like he knows enough to criticize a professional astronomer. Anyone who knows something about Physics and published numbers know that such nitpicking is silly.

“The Ledge” movie compliments Christianity - National Messianic Jewish | Examiner.com

Mariano has posted an article about the upcoming movie "The Ledge". He wrote:

By the way, no, fundamentalist does not mean that he is concerned with the basics, the fundamentals of the Christian faith but rather that he is a stuck up, domineering jerk. This movie was directed by the activist atheist Matthew Chapman who stated “My hope was to make an emotional appeal.” Indeed, what else does he had with which to work?

Continue reading on Examiner.com “The Ledge” movie compliments Christianity - National Messianic Jewish | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/messianic-jewish-in-national/the-ledge-movie-compliments-christianity#ixzz1Rx1XOeb3

Indeed what else is there? Kind of feel sorry for Chapman and atheists in general. Read Mariano's whole article at the link


“The Ledge” movie compliments Christianity - National Messianic Jewish | Examiner.com

Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Response | Reflections

Dr Kenneth Samples reviews Harry Potter and talks about the Philosophy in the Harry Potter franchise and how to respond from a Christian point of view.

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OMG WANT: Jetlev r200 Water-Powered Jet Pack [New Video]

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The Philistines: Bible Bad Guys | Dr. Claude Mariottini – Professor of Old Testament

Dr Mariottini has posted a great video showing new archaeological for the Philistines! Cool!



Click Here

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FacePalm of the Day #104 - 'God the Father' banished by mainline denomination

The United Church of Christ is attempting to change it's wording in its organizational documents. For example look at this.

 The reason?

Denomination spokeswoman Barb Powell told WND today that the change was made because the reference to "heavenly Father" was too restrictive.
"In the UCC, our language for God, Christ and the Holy Spirit … is preferred to be more open for different expressions of the Trinity," she said. "Heavenly Father is just one vision."
She told WND the denomination seeks to be "inclusive" in its language, "so therefore we will tend to change language that is more traditional to be more inclusive."
She said some of the denomination's pastors refer to God with terms such as "Creator" and "Father and Mother."
"There are a lot of people who decided, if God still is speaking to us, there is more light and truth to break forth," she said.

Read more: 'God the Father' banished by mainline denomination http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=318981#ixzz1RqeCDZ9D

The reason why Christians shouldn't change it is because the Bible uses that language. The problem was called out by David Runnion-Bareford. He said:

"Rejecting God as Father in an age of fatherlessness is unthinkable," said David Runnion-Bareford, a leader of the fellowship organization. "God acted toward us in amazing grace when He offered to be our Father through the sacrifice of his Son, Jesus Christ who offers us life in his name.
"This is not something we as humans made up in some other time. Rejecting our Father is [an] act of arrogant rebellion in the name of cultural conformity that only further alienates members, churches, but more importantly God himself."

Read more: 'God the Father' banished by mainline denomination http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=318981#ixzz1RqfLdDv9

I'm glad God has put people in the Unite Church of Christ to stand against such heresy. The denomination is very broad and have a wide variety of viewpoints. The article talks a lot about Jeremiah Wright and the way his church embraces Black Liberation Theology. I really dislike Black Liberation Theology because it is not Jesus centered. You can read my post on Black Liberation Theology,

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Answering Muslims: Three Things about Islam

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Conservative Group Walks Back From That Whole "Black Marriage Better During Slavery" Comment - The Snob Blog - Danielle Belton's The Black Snob

Remember the group that brought up the idea that children were better under slavery than now? Well they actually apologized....sort of.

From Politico:

“After careful deliberation and wise insight and input from valued colleagues we deeply respect, we agree that the statement referencing children born into slavery can be misconstrued, and such misconstruction can detract from the core message of the Marriage Vow: that ALL of us must work to strengthen and support families and marriages between one woman and one man," the group's officials said in a statement. "We sincerely apologize for any negative feelings this has caused, and have removed the language from the vow.”

Daniel Belton is insighthl in her article. Take a look at the following link.

Conservative Group Walks Back From That Whole "Black Marriage Better During Slavery" Comment - The Snob Blog - Danielle Belton's The Black Snob

Calvin on the Christ-less Unitarianism of Islam

Image via WikipediaDr James White posted the following quote from John Calvin. He saw this over on the Reformed Baptist Fellowship Blog:

For even if many men once boasted that they worshipped the Supreme Majesty, the Maker of heaven and earth, yet because they had no Mediator it was not possible for them truly to taste God’s mercy, and thus be persuaded that he was their Father. Accordingly, because they did not hold Christ as their Head, they possessed only a fleeting knowledge of God. From this it also came about that they at last lapsed into crass and foul superstitions and betrayed their own ignorance. So today the Turks, although they proclaim at the top of their lungs that the Creator of heaven and earth is God, still, while repudiating Christ, substitute an idol in place of the true God. - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Book II, Chapter VI).

Calvin on the Christ-less Unitarianism of Islam

God Is Real | Dr. Claude Mariottini – Professor of Old Testament

Dr Claude Mariottini has posted a great article about how the prophet Jeremiah knew God exists! Awesome! Check out his blog post at the following link.


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FacePalm of the Day - #103 - Debunking Christianity: Personified Myth or Mythologized Person?

Tommy G Baker has written a post on Debunking Christianity in which he attempts to explain why Christians today believe Jesus is the divine Son of God when he claims that Jesus' first followers did not. I'd argue that Paul's teachings did not differ from the teachings of Jesusl or the Apostles.

Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days. I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother. I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie. (Galatians 1:18-20)

What writings of the New Testament are actually from Paul? I know of no serious scholars that deny that Paul wrote Galatians. In fact you will read in any search or book that is of any reputable scholar that Galatians is authentic. Paul claims in these verses to have met James, the brother of the Lord.

Okay, finally, a point of consensus and agreement.

The mythicist position is one in which there is a claim that no historical person exists behind the myth of the Christian Christ. A mythicist must therefore go against all of scholarship and state that Galatians is a forgery. Or she must make another statement that is even harder to demonstrate. Paul is lying!!!

Just like the no rational and informed person would argue that Paul did not write Galatians, they would not argue that Jesus was not a historical person. Let's see if Paul is lying.

Now certainly we can show how wrong Paul is about claims such as a resurrection or the idea that there is a god that requires a human sacrifice. But these are his real beliefs. They are not intentional deception. If he is deluded about such things could he be deluded about something like visiting actual flesh and blood people? Kidding aside these are different categories of knowledge. We are left with whether Paul is telling the truth or he is lying.

Baker states that we can show that Paul is wrong about the Resurrection and that his sacrifice was necessary. He doesn't elaborate his point but I'll let him skate because it's not the point of his article and Paul more than ably destroys this silly notion. Instead let us focus on whether Paul was telling the truth about meeting James and at least some of the original apostles.

If he is lying we are required to prove that Paul is taking a mythological pattern found in the Mystery Cults and attempting to create a historical Jewish figure. He would also have to be lying about persecuting previous followers of the Jesus movement. But if he was making up this account then many could have challenged him. Much of his work presupposes that the recipients know some of what he claims and what has transpired.

I think we can agree with this above paragraph. We don't see such challenges made against Paul and the recipients of the epistles he wrote would have indeed been knowledgeable of what he claimed. Paul's story is also validated in external Jewish sources.

Let us assume that this passage is an interpolation as a few scholars have hypothesised[sic].

And here comes the first facepalm. There is no need to make such assumption. If you do, then you claim Paul lied without proving that he did.

Then we are still confronted with Paul's claim in another passage to have spoken to James, the Brother of Jesus, Peter and John who were disciples and knew Jesus:

Galatians 2.... Then after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. ² I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain. ³ Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. ⁴ This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. ⁵ We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. ⁶ As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favouritism—they added nothing to my message. ⁷ On the contrary, they recognised that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised.^{[ 8} For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. ⁹ James, Cephas^[ and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognised the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. ¹⁰ All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.

Galatians 2:1-10

We can see that he speaks again of a historical encounter with people who supposedly knew Jesus or were in fact related to him. Finally we have Paul stating that he opposed Peter in Antioch, an event that was apparently known or at least verifiable to the recipients of Paul's letter:

¹¹ When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. ¹² For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. ¹³ The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
¹⁴ When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?"

Galatians 2:11-14

We are left with one more possibility that Paul did meet with James who claimed to be the brother of Jesus but James made it up and the fact that he had a brother. Peter and John went along with it and perhaps much of Jerusalem.

And here comes another facepalm! Why would that even be a possibility and why would Peter, John, and anyone in Jerusalem back up such a story about Jesus having siblings if it were not so? We know emphatically that Jesus had siblings and his brothers did not believe in Him and were in fact embarrassed by him.

³⁰ He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”
³¹ Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. ³² A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”
³³ “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.

³⁴ Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! ³⁵ Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.” - Mark3:30-35

⁵⁴ Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. ⁵⁵ “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? ⁵⁶ Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things? - Matthew 13:54-56

¹ After this, Jesus went around in Galilee. He did not want^[a] to go about in Judea because the Jewish leaders there were looking for a way to kill him. ² But when the Jewish Festival of Tabernacles was near, ³ Jesus’ brothers said to him, “Leave Galilee and go to Judea, so that your disciples there may see the works you do. ⁴ No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world.” ⁵ For even his own brothers did not believe in him.
⁶ Therefore Jesus told them, “My time is not yet here; for you any time will do. - John 7:1-6

These arguments of Paul are to a historical situation. The followers of Jesus were Jewish and had no teachings from Jesus that they were to stop following the Jewish Law. Why because Jesus was Jewish. He was a human brother of James. They thought that he was a great teacher ( as refelcted[sic] in Q) and a blameless man that would return soon at the end of the ages as Messiah and in the general resurrection.

First the existence of a "Q" source is conjecture at best. You have to do better than that. The Gospel according to Mark clears expresses that Jesus taught that he would be killed and resurrected. He applies the divine name to himself and does things that only God can do like claiming the authority to forgive sin. Ever read Mark 1? Doesn't look like it if you think Mark conflicts with Paul.

How do we know this? Because there are two major movements from the first century that cause many more by the second century. There is the movement in Jerusalem as pointed to by Paul and headed by the original followers of Jesus. And there is Paul who opposes their understanding of the very person they followed.

Hmmm...references? None? If Baker is still speaking of Galatians and referring to the Judaizers, then he must have forgotten about all the Gentiles who became Christians through the ministries of Philip and Peter before Paul's own conversion! The Apostles were not in their camp but they agreed with Paul!

The beliefs that we find Paul complaining about that James, John and Peter hold are the same claims that the Ebionites held until the early second century. This view was followed by Theodotus and much of the Roman Church authority until suppressed by the mythically oriented movements that viewed Jesus as God. We find this movement in Paul and the Gospel of John.

There is no proof of James, Peter, or John holding the same claims as the Ebionites. They however did agree with Paul. Here Baker seems to be making the same claims Muslims make against Paul. Do you really think Peter and James, who allowed themselves to be martyred would just stand by and let Paul misrepresent them? IF you think that, I have some swamp land on Tatooine I could sell you with George Lucas' signature on the deed!

In Paul Jesus is not yet God he is the son of God. In the Gospel of John Jesus is viewed as a god or divine in the sense of pre-existence. These late first century beliefs became even more diverse by the second century when docetism ( Christ is God but not human ) became popular and a competition in Rome against the views as expressed by Theodotus. Gnosticism also was on the rise where Jesus only appeared to be a human but was a Spirit. Another form of Gnosticsm saw Jesus as a human in which the God or Spirit of Christ came down into until the crucifixion. At that time Jesus was abandoned. Finally the Trinitarians showed up to try and account for both a human and God in one person. This occurred late second or early third century.

Let's see what Paul wrote about who Jesus is in Galatians

¹ It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. - Galatians 5:1

There is no way that Paul is suggesting that Jesus is ontologically less than God because as a Jew he wold not give glory of emancipation from slavery to anyone less that the Almighty God who brought his people out of Egypt. If one thinks that "son of God" mean "not God" they need to do more research. Might I suggest you read the work of Dr Darryl Bock for help. Clearly neither Docetism nor Gnosticism were in anyway part of what Paul and the other Apostles taught .

As we can see the easiest and most logical explanation for the information that we have is the typical and traditional critical historical view. There was a historical person that shows up in the source called Q in sayings. He is made Gentile by Mark.

Where? Major FacePalm.

Some of the competing movements have a resolution. The Gospel of Matthew is written for the Jewish Churches while the Gospel of Luke and Acts are written for the Gentile Churches ( for example James M. Robinson, The Gospel of Jesus ).

Um Matthew, Luke, and Acts do not conflict.

Both allow for the acceptance of Gentiles into the Church. But Matthew requires all of the Law to be followed. Jesus states that he has not come to do away with the law but to fulfill it. Not one iota of it will ever change. For Luke and Paul, Jesus complete s and replaces the law.

Matthew does not reject Gentiles. In Matthew Jesus interacts with and heals gentiles remember?

⁵ When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. ⁶ “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”
⁷ Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”
⁸ The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. ⁹ For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
¹⁰ When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. ¹¹ I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. ¹² But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” ¹³ Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.- Matthew 8:5-12

For all the New Testament, Jesus is an "and" not a "but" To think that Paul is making up something new, means a complete and sad misunderstanding of what he wrote. He quotes from the Old Testament constantly and uses them to show Jesus is Messiah, Lord, and salvation is but through Jesus.


The Jerusalem Church produced nothing in writing because they were expecting an immediate return of Jesus. And supposedly James, John and Peter were illiterate peasants. It is after the fall of Jerusalem that any thing other than the Saying of Jesus as in Q are written about him. Mark reflects a time right after the fall of the Temple. Matthew and Luke are decades later reflecting apologetics as to why Jesus had not returned though the Temple had fallen.

That sure is a lot of hand-waving. Too bad there isn't a shred of proof offered to show that these conclusions are valid.

As the return of Jesus was delayed and delayed he became portrayed as more and more divine with salvation occurring in believing in "Him" rather than his message. His resurrection was into a Trinitarian dogma instead of a historical event. A failed Jewish teacher who had some good ideas became a mythological God whose following has caused 2000 years of superstition and bloodshed in the name of the Prince of Peace and Christian love.

Last I checked, Jesus far from failed. His Resurrection and promised forgiveness of sin through Him was preached from the beginning. And I don't mean just Mark, try Genesis. In addition the problems of 2000 years superstition and blood shed is at the feet of people not obeying what is in the Word of God not because of it.

Written by Tommy G. Baker

If Baker is wrong about Jesus not having brothers and sisters, why should anyone take any of his conclusions seriously? They should be dismissed due to their failure but not lack of imagination.



Debunking Christianity: Personified Myth or Mythologized Person?

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• Have The "Christian" Zionists Accused You Of Preaching A "Replacement Theology" Concerning Israel? (soulrefuge.org)

Sunday Quote: Ben Witherington on the Historical Resurrection of Jesus - Apologetics 315

Brian Auten has posted a great quote from Dr Ben Witherington on the important of the fact of Jesus' Resurrection. His comment flies in the face of scholars like Dr. Dominac Crossan who I heard once say that Jesus' physical resurrection plays no part in his Christianity.

“Any position in which claims about Jesus or the resurrection are removed from the realm of historical reality and placed in a subjective realm of personal belief or some realm that is immune to human scrutiny does Jesus and the resurrection no service and no justice. It is a ploy of desperation to suggest that the Christian faith would be little affected if Jesus was not actually raised from the dead in space and time.

A person who gives up on the historical foundations of our faith has in fact given up on the possibility of any real continuity between his or her own faith and that of a Peter, Paul, James, John, Mary Magdalene, or Priscilla. The first Christian community had a strong interest in historical reality, especially the historical reality of Jesus and his resurrection, because they believed their faith, for better or for worse, was grounded in it.”

- Ben Witherington

I agree with Dr Witherington. Without the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, there is no Christianity (1 Corinthians 15).

Sunday Quote: Ben Witherington on the Historical Resurrection of Jesus - Apologetics 315

THE OFFICIAL... BIBLE EXPERIENCE WEBSITE

I've posted about the Bible Experience before in the past on this blog. I thought to revisit it and repost a video about it and talent list. As far as I know, there has not been anything like this. An "A" list cast of African-American Actors, Actresses, Singers, Poets, and Artists lend their voices to an audio production of the Bible - All 66 books are dramatized. Amazing!!!!

COMPLETE TALENT LIST


YOLANDA ADAMS
ERIKA ALEXANDER
TATYANA ALI
TICHINA ARNOLD
ESSENCE ATKINS
JAMES AVERY
OBBA BABATUNDE
OGIE BANKS III
ANGELA BASSETT
JOHN BEASLEY
IVORY BELK
RON BELK
BILL BELLAMY
ERIC BEN╔T
JOHN BENTLEY
DR. A. R. BERNARD
AHMED BEST
BISHOP CHARLES E. BLAKE
JONI BOVILL
KD BOWE
DREW CHRISTIAN BOWSER
EVAN JUSTICE BOWSER
YVETTE LEE BOWSER
VALERIE BOYD
PASTOR JOHN BOYD II
CONNI MARIE BRAZELTON
JAMES ?JB? BROWN
JIM BROWN
LOU ?BUSTER? BROWN
WREN T. BROWN
BISHOP JAMAAL BRYANT
MECCA KALANI BUFORD
LeVAR BURTON
AKOSUA BUSIA
DR. JUANITA BYNUM
MARCUS BYRD
SHIRLEY CAESAR
JORDAN CALLOWAY
VANESSA BELL CALLOWAY
TISHA CAMPBELL MARTIN
RON CANADA
WILLIE CARPENTER
TERRENCE ?T.C.? CARSON
ALVIN CHEA
BILL COBBS
COMMON
JILL CONNORS
TERRY CREWS
GREGG DANIEL
CASSI DAVIS
PASTOR PHILLIP DAVIS
RUBY DEE
CEDRIC DENT
ALEX D╔SERT
LORETTA DEVINE
REGGIE DORSEY
GARY DOURDAN
IMANI DUCKETTE
ROCKMOND DUNBAR
DONNA DUPLANTIER
CHARLES DUTTON
MICHAEL EALY
IDRIS ELBA
SARAH ENGLISH
FAITH EVANS
KENT FAULCON
DUSTIN FELDER
AURORA FERLIN
TYRA FERRELL
KIM FIELDS
ALEXIS FIELDS JACKSON
KIRK FRANKLIN
MAURA GALE
SAGE GALLON
YVETTE GANIER
PASTOR DUANE GANTHER
REGGIE GASKINS
INDIRA GIBSON
MATT GIBSON
TYRESE GIBSON
CARL GILLIARD
MEAGAN GOOD
CUBA GOODING JR
ROBERT GOSSETT
APRIL GRACE
KHAMANI GRIFFIN
ROBERT GUILLAUME
EVA GUTIERREZ
JASMINE GUY
REGINA HALL
ANTHONY HAMILTON
LEONARD HARMON
HILL HARPER
TANYA HART
PAT HARVEY
TARAJI P. HENSON
CINDY HERRON-BRAGGS
DUL╔ HILL
PASTOR DONALD HILLIARD
DOMINIC HOFFMAN
RUSSELL HORNSBY
ISRAEL HOUGHTON
CATHY HUGHES
MANDISA HUNDLEY
CHIP HURD
DR. BILLY INGRAM
KEVIN C. JACKSON
KEVIN M. JACKSON
LaTANYA RICHARDSON JACKSON
SAMUEL L. JACKSON
BISHOP T.D. JAKES
CHERYL ?SALT? JAMES
BRENT JENNINGS
JUANITA JENNINGS
COOKIE JOHNSON
RHOMEYN JOHNSON
BISHOP NOEL JONES
JOSEPH JAY JONES
PRISCILLA JONES
VERALYN JONES
STAR JONES REYNOLDS
MALCOLM DAVID KELLEY
PATRICIA KELLY
PAGE KENNEDY
JOEY KIBBLE
MARK KIBBLE
EARTHA KITT
BORIS KODJOE
NIKKI KODJOE
CYNTHIA LARKIN
ERIQ LASALLE
SANAA LATHAN
ADAM LAZARRE-WHITE
TIMOTHY LEE
HARRY J. LENNIX
LEON
DAWNN LEWIS
FELICIA LISTER
TOMMY ?TINY? LISTER
IRIS LITTLE-THOMAS
SHANA LLOYD
BISHOP EDDIE L. LONG
NIA LONG
VICTOR LOVE
DEREK LUKE
ANTONIO DAVID LYONS
RICHARD LYONS
JUDGE MABLEAN EPHRIAM
DE MANN
MARY MARY
JUDGE GREG MATHIS
MC LYTE
BISHOP CLARENCE McCLENDON
DONNIE McCLURKIN
R.L. McCRAY
GWEN McGEE
CLAUDE McKNIGHT
KRISTEN MARIE MICHEL
MO?NIQUE
CANDIDA MOBLEY WRIGHT
PATRICIA MOORE
LEON MORENZIE
CHRISTOPHER MORGAN
DEBBI MORGAN
TOMMY MORGAN JR
GARRETT MORRIS
PHIL MORRIS
BISHOP PAUL S. MORTON
MYA
DWIGHT ?HEAVY D? MYERS
NIECY NASH
ANN NESBY
MOROCCO OMARI
LAUREN ?KEKE? PALMER
EVAN PARKE
DANITA PATTERSON
ERIC A. PAYNE
LISA RENEE PITTS
CCH POUNDER
ARNELL POWELL
PASTOR LAWRENCE POWELL
WALTER PRIDGEN
SANDRA PROSPER
MICHAEL RALPH
DARRYL ALAN REED
DONNA REED
DORAN REED
ROBI REED
DAPHNE MAXWELL REID
TIM REID
COREY REYNOLDS
TIM EDWARD RHOZE
RICHARD RIGHTEOUS
BUMPER ROBINSON
ROGER ROBINSON
SHAUN ROBINSON
WENDY RAQUEL ROBINSON
JOHN SALLEY
RODNEY SAULSBERRY
BISHOP GEORGE C. SEARIGHT
PASTOR J. DREW SHEARD
KELVIN SHEPARD
JONATHAN SLOCUMB
DAVID SMALLWOOD
TUCKER SMALLWOOD
TASHA SMITH
CHARLES SPROW JR
NANCY SPROW
MICAH STAMPLEY
ANGIE STONE
MARK E. SWINTON
TAKE 6
DAVID THOMAS
LORRAINE TOUSSAINT
CHERI TOWNSEND
GLYNN TURMAN
PAMALA TYSON
BISHOP KENNETH C. ULMER
BLAIR UNDERWOOD
BLAKE, BRIELLE & PARIS UNDERWOOD
KAMDEN & KHLOE UNDERWOOD
IYANLA VANZANT
TERRI J. VAUGHN
ANDREA ?KIM? WALKER
BISHOP JOSEPH WALKER
ANGELA WALTON
ANDRE WARE
DENZEL WASHINGTON
PAULETTA WASHINGTON
TICO WELLS
FOREST WHITAKER
DAN WHITE
DENIECE WILLIAMS
ELLIS E. WILLIAMS
MALINDA WILLIAMS
MYKELTI WILLIAMSON
MIRRON E. WILLIS
PASTOR MARVIN WINANS
ALFRE WOODARD
CHARLAYNE WOODARD
CHARLES RANDOLPH WRIGHT
JEFFREY WRIGHT
MARVIN WRIGHT-BEY
WIL E. YOUNG

THE OFFICIAL... BIBLE EXPERIENCE WEBSITE

FacePalm of the Day #102 - Islam and Christianity A Common Word: Orthodox Christians Beating The Holy Hell Out of Each Other!

thegrandverbalizer has written a post containing videos of Christians fighting one another. He attempts to make the application that Islam is better because Muslims are peaceful.

So what actually happens when you run out of cheeks? These Christians show the world the power that Christ wrought effectual in them by beating the holy crap out of one another in Jerusalem.

These Muslims show the world the power that Christ wrought effectual in them by beating the holy crap out of one another in America!

So don't let anyone fool you that Muslims are the trouble makers! Watch for yourself as Muslims beat the living day lights out of one another.

Punches Thrown in Minneapolis Mosque: MyFoxTWINCITIES.com

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword instead!" (Matthew 10:34)

Qur'an 4:34—Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011/07/female-mps-get-into-cat-fight-on-floor.html


AND THE CHRISTIAN VIOLENCE CONTINUES...








AND MORE MUSLIM VIOLENCE..






http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011/04/thirteen-muslims-acquitted-of-publicly.html



THE GREEK SIDE OF THE STORY AND THE ARMENIAN SIDE OF THE STORY.







THE GOALS OF SOME MUSLIME.

My Point

In case the point has not been made clear. My argument is that people are sinner and do all kinds of evil! You, me, and everyone you know is guilty of some sin. It doesn't matter if you claim to be a Christian, Muslim, or anything else - you have the propensity to sin. What do you do about that? How do you curtail it? How do you atone for it? You can't. FacePalm worthy arguments are not going to cut it. Only Jesus can do it for you and through you. If you want to be free from your sin - it will only be by Jesus. When Christians are behaving badly (sin) it is no more the fault of Christianity than it is the fault of Islam when Muslims do the same (sin).

Islam and Christianity A Common Word: Orthodox Christians Beating The Holy Hell Out of Each Other!

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Carl Sagan Explains Time Dilation [Video]

Here is an oldie but goodie. Carl Sagan explains Time Dilation.

Carl Sagan Explains Time Dilation [Video]

Faithful Thinkers: Understanding and Belief

Luke Nix has posted a great article about how understanding and belief correlate. Luke was inspired by the following

Not too long ago I was discussing naturalistic evolution with an atheist. After a while of being unable to convince me of its truth, he told me that if I understood it, I would believe it. And further that since I didn't believe it or understand it, that any arguments I offered would be strawmen, and he didn't have to respond to them. I let the discussion rest at that point. Not because I saw the problem with what he was saying, but more because I was caught "off guard" and saw that he had actually come to that conclusion before we even began the conversation.

I wasn't too worried about it at the time, but I've come across similar claims from those who don't agree with me on other things as well. So I'm going to take a few minutes to put together a response for such claims.

I have ran across similar arguments and I think his response is well-worth considering. Feel free to read his post at the following link.


Faithful Thinkers: Understanding and Belief

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Scientists of Faith - Apologetics 315

Brian Auten has posted an article that gives a short bio of famous and important scientists who were also devout Christians. They are not the only ones! Check out his list.

Scientists of Faith - Apologetics 315

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Faithful Thinkers: Video: Bargaining With God?

Here is a question that Dr Norman Geisler answers in which I think it was really well-done. I think that people not just only try to bargain with God for their eternal destiny but for the things we want in the here and now in our lives. It doesn't work. The best we got is to obey God and follow his commandments. We can trust Him.






Faithful Thinkers: Video: Bargaining With God?

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