Thegrandverbalizer has posted an article regarding an exchange from Rabbi Singer and "The Way of the Master" Radio host. Thegrandverbalizer believes that Rabbi Singer was able fend off the host's attempts to convert him. And after listening to the exchange myself I decided to add my comments which are in Red.
This is a deeply interesting exchange between Rabbi Singer of
outreachjudaism.org and 'The Way of the Master' Evangelical Radio Host.
The Creator says in the Qur'an:
The Jews say, "The
Christians have nothing to stand on," and the Christians say,
'The Jews have nothing to stand on" Yet
they (all) quote from the [same] Book. Likewise those who do not know make a statement similar to theirs.
God will judge between them on
Resurrection Day concerning how they have been differing." (
Holy Qur'an 2:113)
I don't think a single Bible believing Christian or Religious Jew would disagree with that statement. However I would have to ask, do we know what criteria and standard God will use on Judgment Day? How do you know if when weighed, counted, and measured that you will not be found wanting?
So this is deeply interesting. Because they both claim that they are taking from the TNCH (Torah, Prophets and Writings) yet they are coming to radically different conclusions.
The Christian approach the TNCH with their various Christian presuppositions. Some times their philosophy also helps to guide their views of scripture.
Thegrandverbalizer here seems to suggest that the reason why Christians understand the Torah and the Prophets differently than today's Jews is because of our presuppositions. As if Jews, or anyone else for that matter, don't have presuppositions.
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. - 1 Corinthians 1:21-24
Outreach Judaism-Way of The Master
This is a link to the exchange in question. I've embedded it here.
Some times I do not understand why talk show host have to be smug with their comments.
I'm not sure how Todd Frielwas smug. What is it that Thegrandverbalizer is seeing?
However, the Rabbi made a good point that Christians have more hostility towards Islam than they do towards Buddhism and other faiths.
Did Thegrandverbalizer not hear the Rabbi refer to Islam being a threat to Israel, all Jews, and Christians? Why does Thegrandverbalixer only focus on Christian "hostility".
Notice that the Radio Host did not contest that point. The Rabbi was talking about the suffering that the people of Israel have suffered at the hands of Christians (Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical) you name it through the years.
Why should Friel contest the point? It's true that some Christians persecuted Jews and that is stupid. I don't understand why would Christians hates Jews. It's stupid. Jesus was a Jew. All of his first followers were Jews. Just because someone claims to be "Christian" doesn't make them a Christian. antisemitism is a sure sign that one is not a Christian.
Of course that struck a cord with the radio host and he tried to say 'well that's different'.
I think you can't conflate things all willy-nilly. In the
New Testament, it was Jews who hunted down and killed Christians in the beginning. Both were wrong. Even today the first century Rabbi, Gamaeli said something worth repeating regarding his contemporaries who were Christians.
33 When they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. 34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. 35 Then he addressed the Sanhedrin: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. 36 Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37 After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. 38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”- Acts 5:33-39
The Rabbi counters mentioning the fact that Martin Luther (A Christ filled Christian) said many hateful and evil things about
Jewish people.
He mentions that Calvin and other (Christ filled Christians) have gone on record to say hateful things about Jewish people.
Thegrandverbalizer seems to imply that if a person was truly sprit-filled they would be unable to make the mistakes and judgments that Luther and Calvin did against Jews, but he seems to forget the Peter made a similar error and Paul called him on it,.
Was Peter wrong? Yup. Does that mean that he was not Holy Spirit filled? No.
For those interested I did a blog entry about
Martin Luther's notorious book
"The Jews and their Lies"
I also had to call out a Protestant blog that specializes in Martin Luther's literature to condemn Anti Jewish Hate Literature! Ken Temple and James Swan (major contributors to a blog that holds Martin Luther in high esteem) to their credit did condemn Martin Luther for his vile and hate filled statements and distanced themselves from it.
You can find the comments at the bottom of the entry above where Ken Temple says,
"So, yes, we condemn Luther’s Anti-Semitism and course language. Many believe he was not being racially hateful, but he was speaking theologically. But that is no excuse for the sin of that kind of language.
Ken"
You know I am glad that they did that. Just as I as a Muslim condemn any hate filled rhetoric by Hamas, Hezbollah or political organization that takes issue with
occupation of Palestine.
Me too. And I've got to admit I have read thegrandverbalizer make such repudiations to his credit.
However, what is deeply troubling for me as a Muslim is how Martin Luther was still held in such high esteem by Christians. Was Martin Luther 'Christ filled' when he made those statements?
Was Martin Luther "filled with the Holy Spirit of God" when he made those hateful and ugly statements?
It's worth looking at how Paul corrected Peter
11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 1213 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
17 “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.
19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”- Galations 2:11-21
It's also worth pointing out that Peter repented of his sin. I don't know if Luther repented of his sin against Jews (I hope so) but as the original articles on Beggar's All blog site show it's a lot more complicated than thegrandverbalizer tries to make it out to be.
Think of the following passage from the New Testament and think of Martin Luther (a saved Christian one of the elect of God)
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. (1 John 3:5-12)
Now think of a man filled with the Holy Spirit filled over flowing with the cup of Christ compassion and warmth saying the following things about the Jewish people. If I didn't know better I could have sworn the following came from Adolf Hitler at a speech in Berlin in the 1930s.
" They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine." The synagogue was a "defiled bride, yes, an incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..." He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness, afforded no legal protection, and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time. He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them."
My sincere apologies to the reader has I have digressed. However, I feel it was necessary to give some substance to what the Rabbi said concerning Protestant Christianity's reformers.
Yes, Luther was wrong, but thegrandverbalizer makes misuse of 1st John 3:5-12. John is not saying that a person who is filled by the Spirit never sins and never makes a mistake again. Sinless perfection is not a reality of any living person, no matter you religious persuasion, knows anything about. Neither did Paul (See Romans 7). We are not righteous or obtain salvation for what we do, but by what Jesus did for us. John is talking about sinful unrepentance.
The Radio Show Host said that Luther did not write books condemning Jews? Either he is a) ignorant or he is b) not being honest.
Christians are allowed to be dishonest because Robert Morey said so! You will also see that the Christian does indeed lie because he doesn't keep to his promise to the Rabbi (very typical).
Who cares what Robert Morey says if the Bible says the opposite? The Bible tells us not to lie and that God hates lying. The Bible clearly says God hates lying more than he hates homosexuality.. What I want to know what does thegrandverabalizer have to say about the Qur'an that says it's okay for Muslims to lie to non-Muslims?
The Qur'an:
Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can “compel” a Muslim to tell a lie.
Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to “guard themselves.”
Qur'an (9:3) - “…Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters…” The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.
Qur'an (2:225) - “Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts”
Qur'an (66:2) - “Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths”
Qur'an (3:54) - “And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.” The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means deceit. If Allah is deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also
8:30 and 10:21)
Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be “compelled” to deceive others for a greater purpose.
Islam Permits Lying to Deceive Unbelievers and Bring World Domination!
The Christian promised to the Rabbi after the commercial break that he would try and convert the Rabbi to a belief of three beings living in community as one god, and the Rabbi would try and bring him back to the God of Israel.
Than the Rabbi had to correct the Radio Host who was trying to play the role of God.
The Christian Radio host says the following:
"I try to convert you and you try to convert me"
I admit I wish Friel wouldn't have tried to go toe-to-toe like that. I don't think there was enough time and some key points were missed.
The Rabbi had to correct him that it is God who converts (not we human beings) So the Christian once again says,
"You try and make me a Jew and I will try and make you a Christian of course God doing it"
Now of course the Christian could have let the Rabbi go first after the break, but he decided to take the first shot. (Note) The Christian did not give the Rabbi a chance to convert him.
I'd like to know what recording thegrandverbalizer listened to because I heard the rabbi give a clear argument for why and how a person should become a Jew instead of a Christian. .
So the Christian gives his spill about has the Rabbi walked perfect before God keeping all the commandments etc (basically is he perfect). The Rabbi quoted scripture showing what the JEWISH definition of Righteousness is as given in the scripture.
If you asked Gamaliel the same question, I don't think he would have given the same answer as Rabbi Singer. It's important to keep in mind that Rabbi Singer said in the beginning that the Bible is not his source of authority but that its the Prophets of Israel.
The Christian only gave Philosophical arguments (how can you stand before a Holy God) note this is the Christian presupposition superimposed upon the Rabbi.
The Rabbi brought up the points that you can Repent (turn back) to God.
No Bible-believing Christian would disagree. The issue is how does your debt get paid?
3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.- Ezekiel 18:3-4
The Christian makes the mistake of saying that a sin completely cuts you off from God unless there is some offering of blood. The Rabbi shows this is not the case. No Sacrifice to God!
So the Christian prefaces his statement with the following:
"Very quickly than we will let you scoot" -Basically the Christian is realizing that this discussion is not going the way they want so we will 'let you scoot'.
Um...how does thegrandverbalizer know that?
You can see during the exchange the Christian starts to grumble, and mumble, yeah well mmm alright. You can see that the Christian is the one who is not happy with what the scripture says.
Where is that? A lot of scripture was not brought out that should have been.
The Rabbi brought him scripture and irrefutable example that his Christian presupposition that he gets from Paul that he starts to superimpose upon Judaism is absolutely untenable!
How is that?
10 “‘I will set my face against any Israelite or any foreigner residing among them who eats blood, and I will cut them off from the people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life. 12 Therefore I say to the Israelites, “None of you may eat blood, nor may any foreigner residing among you eat blood.”- Leviticus 17:10-12
No one who reads the Bible would say that repentance is not necessary to restore your relationship with God, but the Bible also clearly shows that there must be something sacrificed to propitiate the debts we have incurred to God. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Atonement. The ancient sacrificial system was symbolic of what Jesus did for us.
So the Christian tries to take one last shot by saying within the Mosaic covenant was a system of sacrifice and 'Let us just leave it as that because you and I have a different hermeneutic"
Obviously, Jews, Christians, and Muslims use differing hermeneutics!
Interesting! Note as well the Christian didn't give the Rabbi a chance to convert him! Ha! ha! Typical!
I think the grandverbalizer missed it. All of the Rabbi's arguments were apologetic in nature.
So this brings me back to what the Creator said about this on going feud between the Jews and Christians here:
The Jews say, "The Christians have nothing to stand on," and the Christians say, 'The Jews have nothing to stand on" Yet they (all) quote from the [same] Book. Likewise those who do not know make a statement similar to theirs. God will judge between them on Resurrection Day concerning how they have been differing." (Holy Qur'an 2:113)
I don't think that the Qur'an correctly expresses what Christians and Jews believe. No one knows what we believe if they use the Qur'an alone as a source.
The Rabbi's final words were "BLESS YOU"
The Christian's final words were "GOOD BYE"
WHICH HAD MORE GRACE AND LOVE ???
I don't think either Friel or Rabbi Singer were mean, rude, or ingracious. I'd really like to see what thegrandverbalizer thinks that Friel said that was loveless or graceless.
Marcus McElhaney (A Christian gentleman who is still searching for the truth) is very fond of coming over to my blog and lifting material from me from time to time I don't think he will want to publish this over at his blog.
Than again who knows?
Well, I think what is even more interesting question is will thegrandverbalizer answer these questions and explain what exactly Todd Friel said that was out of pocket. I appreciated Rabbi Singer. He gave some great information about Jewish history and culture, I just found some disagreement with the Rabbi's theological conclusions.
Islam and Christianity A Common Word: Rabbi Singer takes Evangelical Radio Host to Task.
