Debunking Christianity: How Can We Decide Who Is Wrong?

I've recently commented on a post  by John W. Loftus on his blog. One of the readers of Loftus blog seems to have disagreed with me very much. He responded to my comments by making distinct comments to the points I raised. I've decided to respond in kind. My responses are in red.

Marcus McElhaney, You said, So nothing can be known to exist if it can't be weighed, counted or measured? Is that what you are postulating? Is that what you mean? Personally, I certainly hope that's what John means. What's more, I'll bet that that is how you live your life, too: you demand evidence for everything in your life. Your profile says you're becoming a minister. Does COGIC demand evidence that you are proficient at passing collection plates to pay for miracles?  How dare they demand such proof!  

No. They don't. He obviously knows nothing about Christianity in general or the Church of God in Christ in particular. You cannot pay for miracles. 

Are they suggesting that the Holy Spirit in you must be verified?

No COGIC does not demand verification. Jesus does. 

³⁴"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. ³⁵By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.  - John 13:34-35

If we don't love one another that proves we are not one of  His people. If God did not care for us to know how to verify if we are truly His or not then why is so much information is given in the Bible so that we know what the metrics are?

 ¹⁹The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; ²⁰idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions ²¹and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 ²²But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, ²³gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. ²⁴Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. ²⁵Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. ²⁶Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. Galatians 5: 19-26

And there is more. But because I think the reader can read I'll just leave it at these two examples. The point is that God can and does not have a problem with us considering the evidence of our faith...as a matter of fact He told us what to look for.

Compare your profile to that of Harvey Burnett who became a Christian and a COGIC preacherman all at once, no training.  Wow, you don't know anything about the Church of God in Christ. No one becomes a District Superintendant without training. The means Elder Burnett is not just a Pastor! IT means that he is assistant to his bishop and is over several churches.

Marcus you require evidence, verification, and proof as much as anyone else. The primary difference between you and those who take their cues from the real world is your exceedingly poor standard for what constitutes evidence. Whereas you accept things like tradition, revelation and authority as evidence, more reasonable people reject those things as routes to truth since throughout humanity there exist thousands of incompatible traditions, thousands of irreconcilable revelations, and millions of authority figures convinced that none but them know the truth.  

A lot of presuppositions and no evidence. I do not accept tradition, my revelation, or any authority that is not compatible with the Bible. I agree that there thousand of irreconcilable and incompatible worldviews. They can't all be right, but there is one that I have researched that does stand up to objective evidence and not human opinion: the Bible - the Word of the living God..

You say some version of Christian Bible constitutes evidence, though it clearly does not. In other Christianities they say some other version of a Bible is evidence

I know you are referring to the gnostic texts and other early extra-biblical writings. None of them fit the following metric. 

¹⁶All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, ¹⁷so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

If anyone disagrees, I really would like to see an explanation of how these texts outside the Bible do fit this criteria. And if  he refers to the textual variants, I'd like him to point out a single variant text that conflicts with historic and orthodox Christian doctrine. .

Then, there is the Koran and numerous other holy books declaring themselves to also be the "truth." Your profile also says that you make a living in the science-based field of software engineering. Your income would not exist if it were not for something far more reliable than tradition, revelation, or authority. Are you also a science-denying YEC? Do you discount or reject the science of radioisotopic dating? Were the YEC's mistaken who claim to have recently found Noah's Ark and also to have determined a 4800 year age of the wood via radiocarbon dating? Are you also correct if you deny it? Then, you contradict your fellow religionists. It's not reliable.

May 7, 2010 2:34 PM

I've written on my blog why I accept the Bible over the Qur'an.  Let me briefly just point out that most credible historian agree that Jesus was crucified. The Bible says that Jesus was crucified.  The Qur'an says that Jesus was not crucified. History conflicts with the Qur'an therefore I've got to throw it out.   I'm not a young earth creationists. Not all Christians are Young Earth Creationists. You can be a Christian believe either way - Old Earth or Young Earth. I personally don't find enough Biblical or Scientific evidence to endorse Old Earth Creationism. Even if you think Genesis is speaking of seven 24 hour days of creation that doesn't make the universe 6000 years old. Not all Christians agree with any of your evidence of what a Christian must believe to be a Christian.  That's like saying all Atheists are cannibals because Jeffrey Dahmer was an atheist.  Don't be ignorant and stupid.

Russ said...

You said, Assuming it is I have a two simple lines of questions to ask: How can you prove that your family loves you? Answer: evidence, lots and lots of evidence. In societies like the US where daughters are not bought and sold as chattel, the love of a man or woman must be earned through demonstratable behaviors, some evolutionarily engrained and some societally defined. You provide your love interest with evidence, lots of evidence, and your love interest reciprocates with lots of evidence for you. If the evidence is absent you soon lose interest. Then, too, this evidence exchange is not limited to female-male relationships. Also, parents teach their children to behave in ways consistent with how we feel about them. We see how these things play out at church potlucks, weddings, funerals. How do your children know you do not like someone? Evidence. How do you teach your children to suck up to Grandma? You teach them to provide evidence, tangible behaviors accepted in our society to reflect one's feelings. Also, Marcus, we are so susceptible to accepting behaviors as evidence that we are easily duped with them. This is especially the case when we take the behavior of uttering a litany of unreliable words as evidence. Ted Haggard. Jimmy Swaggart. Jim Baker. Jerry Falwell. George Reker. You? Words are weak evidence by themselves and they are even weaker when, as is the case with all all religions, they are spoken without a reliable standard against which their veracity can be assessed.  

The Bible is a reliable standard when weighing the veracity of anyone speaking on the issues the Bible discusses. Just like there is evidence for loving spouses, parents and children, there is evidence that the Bible is true. MY point was simply that the proof of love cannot be objectively obtained by the scientific method.  All truth cannot be substantiated by naturalism.That is not saying that it's not useful and should be ignored but if you base your entire understand of this reality on it, you will miss a lot!

The Bible is a focal point of Christianity but it is not evidence for much of anything. Some people wrote down the prevailing myths, legends, fables, dreams, and superstitions, then peppered it with a big dollop of wishful thinking. Christians do not agree with each other about it, and, as has been pointed out, there exists no way to resolve the disagreements.  
  
A lot presuppositions. Where is your proof that the Bible is not true and just myth, legends, dreams, superstitions and wishful thinking? Where is the beef?

  How much does their love weigh? How long is it? How wide is it? Dumb. Just dumb. These are not the metrics of love, but the metrics are there. We see how love whithers away when Christians by the millions violate their marriage vows, abandon their children, abuse their children and spouses.

So longevity in a marriage is a proof of love? I disagree. But if it helps my parents have been married 52 years. They credit God for their longevity and love. Atheists are no better at being good spouses or parents than Christians without God.  My point is that you cannot scientifically prove love in a laboratory as Loftus claimed was necessary to know emphatically something is true. He did not qualify the comments but seemed to apply it to everything,. Do you really want to apply such drivel to everything that exists? I don't.

You said, Better question is if there is no transcendence of this life and no one has any ultimate value (as many consistent atheists believe) than what does it matter? Ultimate value is a stupid notion. People do not act as if anyone has "Ultimate Value." Assuming no inbreeding, you have or had eight great grandparents. Can you name all of those people who were of Ultimate Value? How about further back to their sixteen parents? Can you name them? Similarly, your great grand children will have little or not interest in who you were. Imagining Ultimate Value does not make it so. We are all generation-centric. When your children are small they look to you for everything. A few short years later that is no longer the case. A few more years and you become a holiday ornament. Tack on too many more and your Ultimate Value ends up in a nursing home being cared for by strangers.  

Such a bleak outlook. What kind of family are you from? Of course I care about all my foreparents - even if I can't know who all of them are. I owe them. I'm only six generations removed from slavery. All I have and I ever will have to be passed  to my children came through them. I'm here...America is here...because of their sacrifices. I'm not the only one into genealogy and understanding past ancestors. Your arguments are completely unable to be applied to all people.  

How do you prove you matter period? How do we weigh, count, or otherwise measure your worth or anyone else's for that matter? Sure would like to hear answers for these. Of course silence would also be an answer.

Again, evidence, Marcus. Be honest with yourself. You demand it for all things, but what you accept as evidence is horribly flawed.

May 7, 2010 2:34 PM

I wonder if people like Russ really examine what they think or do they just shoot from the hip. I'm a Christian because I do believe the evidence points to the Bible being true. Nothing else makes sense. If these are Russ' best arguments I'm completely unimpressed. I demanded evidence for the Bible and God gave it to me. If you were honest with yourself you would admit the problem isn't with lack of evidence but in you.I know because the failure is in me also and it took the power of God to change me. He can do the same for you.

As for anyone who want to read some good evidences for Christianity being true, you can refer to series of articles from Apologetics 315 which Brian Auten has compiled essays written by several Christians from all walks of life who give their best arguments in a short essay for why Christianity is the only way. 

Apologetics 315 - Essay Series

Debunking Christianity: How Can We Decide Who Is Wrong?